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The funny thing is, your own comment could make you look like an "asshole" in a few decades when moral fashions change again. That's part of the problem with p

• comicjk 13y ago
  His comment will never make him look like an asshole to anyone with historical perspective, because they will know that he was being polite in his time. Terms like oriental are offensive to many people this decade, so I won't use them this decade. If you think that's a moral fashion, then you're confusing the data ($offensive_things) with the moral principle (don't needlessly offend people). I hope you're not hard-coding the data into your morality - that's very bad practice.
• _pius 13y ago
  The other and much worse part is that in some situations the choice of words that you present as (as it indeed is) such a trivial matter can have very nontrivial consequences. Not calling a black person a "nigger" may merely be a trivial moral fashion to you, perhaps, but language has been a very much non-trivial tool of fear and oppression for a long time. That's a fact. For black people, it matters that a newspaper can't be taken seriously if it uses "nigger" as a descriptor. For women, it matters that men can't walk around at a hackathon calling them "baby" and "sweetie" like it's a Mad Men episode. Surely it's obvious why. It's OK to disagree with that, but the burden of proof is on you. And linking to http://paulgraham.com/say.html http://paulgraham.com/say.html doesn't cut it. There is baby and there is bathwater in this discussion and it's decidedly not useful to conflate them, which is exactly what glib dismissals of the whole thing as "political correctness" do.
  • sverige 13y ago
    I'm offended that you spelled out the N-word in its entirety. Please edit your post to correct this grievously insensitive act.
    • icecreampain 13y ago
      I'm offended you spelled out the E-word in its ntirety. Please dit your post to correct this grievously insensitive act.
    • vacri 13y ago
      Political correctness isn't really about 'preventing offense', and simplistic arguments like this make it clear you're not aware of the issues it's trying to deal with. Political correctness is mostly about not using language which diminishes people due to factors outside their control, such as race or gender. Any single such reference is not so much a problem, but when it becomes the way people speak, it very much becomes so. PC is, on the whole, a good thing. It's just ridiculous when taken to extremes, which is the bit everyone is focused on.
    • 001sky 13y ago
      CC: Mark Twain
  • pg 13y ago
    Using the term "political correctness" doesn't imply that one is automatically dismissing all talk about racial discrimination, for example. Political correctness is a distinct phenomenon-- at least, as distinct as any social phenomenon is-- and it's useful to be have a name for it. There are plenty of people who think racial discrimination is a problem and also think political correctness is a problem.
    • DanBC 13y ago
      It is handy to have a term for political correctness. Unfortunately many people misuse that term when they mean "politeness" or similar. These people don't want to stop using the word retard wherever they want, and they want to be outraged when people point out that they're being assholes.
      • 001sky 13y ago
        Political Correctness is a form of passive agression. The entire premise is to pass it off as 'politeness'. It works in a certain way because its a defense mechanism for people entrenched in power an privledge. If you don't get the irony yet, keep thinking. It will come.
• cynicalkane 13y ago
  If we suppose the choice of words is a trivial matter then one wonders what a nontrivial choice of words would look like, if that is even possible. The "choice of words" argument reminds me of a teenager, upon swearing at his mother, protesting that he is "just using a word". Of course he gets grounded anyway, and in time most people learn to outgrow that pseudological pedantry. In reality we use words that mean things and express ideas, and the ideas expressed in words like the N-word are generally odious and useless. And I would hesitate to assume that avoiding referring to an entire category of people with a swear word, associated with centuries of stereotypes and oppression, is merely a "moral fashion". I didn't know that conveying the barest level of respect toward your fellow man was a "moral fashion".
  • jasallen 13y ago
    Some words like "oriental" or "retard" are very often used very innocently with no negative connotations or intents, though. "Political correctness" is an issue because we demonize people for trying to communicate with non-approved grammar. Sure, people who knowingly inject offense into their speech and then cry 'free speech' are assholes. So too, though, are the people that cry foul at someone else innocently (if naively) expressing themselves.
    • tptacek 13y ago
      The problem isn't the intent of the speaker. The problem is that the words themselves carry an intrinsic charge; they create an outsized potential for negative thoughts and impressions in the listener regardless of intent. There are neutral, more purely descriptive words that equally easy to use in conversations, and so it makes sense to push the negatively charged terms out. Fashions will change, but Paul Graham is accidentally creating the impression that fashion is purely random. It is not. The word "retard" as a reference for the mentally handicapped is not going to come back into fashion; it has been obsoleted by a better understanding of both the processes of mental and developmental disability and of the role of the mentally handicapped in society. Which is all for the better, because the verb "retard" is useful, and it would be great if fashion made it less clumsy sounding in normal speech.
• tanzam75 13y ago
  > The funny thing is, your own comment could make you look like an "asshole" in a few decades when moral fashions change again. Oh really? Do we look at Abraham Lincoln was an "asshole" because he referred to "Negroes?" Or do we accept that he was a creature of the 1860s, and remember him for freeing these very "Negroes" who were held in slavery? Lyndon Johnson referred to "equal rights for the American Negro." Do we regard him as an "asshole" for using the term "Negro?" Or do we instead look at the "equal rights" part of that phrase, and celebrate him for his work on the Civil Rights Act of 1964?
  • king_jester 13y ago
    > Do we look at Abraham Lincoln was an "asshole" because he referred to "Negroes?" Or do we accept that he was a creature of the 1860s, and remember him for freeing these very "Negroes" who were held in slavery? Abraham Lincoln was most certainly racist and did view black people inferior to whites, there are multiple instances of documented statements where Lincoln said as much. Also, we do not attribute the end of slavery to Lincoln alone.
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  • _pius 13y ago
    The other big problem with "political correctness" is it creates a society of boring wimps. Says the Internet tough guy posting from an anonymous throwaway account. Please.
    • pallingaround 13y ago
      Point taken. I'm out
    • gizmo686 13y ago
      Doesn't that support your point. Unless you are proposing that even boring wimps can now create anonymous throwaway accounts.