3 ms·
Wikipedia's actions in this case are lamentable, but I do have some sympathy for both sides of the argument Sandifer describes. The language we use is highly co
by enko 13y ago
Wikipedia's actions in this case are lamentable, but I do have some sympathy for both sides of the argument Sandifer describes. The language we use is highly confusing and basically invites these arguments - we're trying to use too few words to describe too many things.
I have no problem whatsoever with "trans" people but do not think it is optimal for, eg, Ms Manning to be simply labelled a woman. She is clearly not, at least not 100%, female, not in the same holistic psycho-physical way that other females are. For example, I'd like to see her try to use a female changeroom and see if the other females go along quietly with that.
Of course Manning should have the right to her name of choice and to be treated as the person she identifies as. But asserting that one can change gender just by announcing it - even when it is a completely sincere statement - seems far too simplistic to me. I of course understand the argument that inventing some new gender designator could further marginalise an already vulnerable demographic, but by simply avoiding the question I think we've dug ourselves into a bit of a hole.
As another commenter said, names are important. It is important for Chelsea to be addressed as she wishes. But it's also important for our language to have a reasonable set of tools to unambiguously describe things. Simply declaring "she's a girl now, and if you disagree with that in the slightest you're a transphobic cis majority oppressor patriarchal bigot", as I see far too much on Twitter, is not the solution.
It's a complex question and I'm not sure what we can do to solve it. I am glad, however, that the topic is on the agenda - the fact we're even talking about it is surely a step forward.
- ceejayoz 13y agoYou're mixing "woman" - gender - and "female" - biological sex - a lot here. The two are not the same.
- ben0x539 13y ago"female" can refer to gender just fine.
- enko 13y agoThe dictionary mixes them too, then. woman |ˈwo͝omən| noun ( pl. women |ˈwimin| ) an adult human female. And so does the author of that post - I looked at the talk page and it says "female" all over the place. You're proving my point. If those two words did in fact have the distinct meanings you imply, that would solve some of the problem.
- ben0x539 13y agoThis is a weird way to put it. The topic has been on the agenda for a long time, gender identity disorder wasn't just discovered yesterday, and there's broad consensus and best practices in the relevant parts of the medical community. Invoking some "holistic psycho-physical" intuition to dismiss years of research and experience with transgender issues is somewhat presuming.
- enko 13y agoI'm not trying to dismiss anything, or claiming to be anything other than a layperson. I'm trying to say that, as that layperson, I find the language we use to be very counter-intuitive, confusing, and fraught with obvious potential for conflict. And yes, I am sure in certain circles this issue has been discussed for years, but I would say Manning's case is the first time a lot of people have thought about these issues.
- sugerman 13y agoI would think they'd be more offended by you saying they have a disorder than people struggling over the correct pronoun.