2 ms·

Is not the proper form to apologize for being an insensitive person yourself, not for the "victim" misunderstanding you? Anyways, I'd be fine with this if not

Is not the proper form to apologize for being an insensitive person yourself, not for the "victim" misunderstanding you? Anyways, I'd be fine with this if not for the arbitrary exclusions. I.e. it's okay to mock people, who believe the world is 5000 y.o for the reason that they are likely intolerant bigots (because such a belief automatically implies not following PC?) but on the other hand, mocking people who believe that a man can become a woman by claiming to be one is an extreme bigotry comparable only to enslavement of blacks (because everybody who believes this, apparently, is automatically PC?). Obviously you need to do these exclusions because, without the witch hunts and angry mobs, PC would not be any fun and the participant would quickly become tired of apologizing to everybody. But, since you have divided people into "good" and "bad" you are now not fighting for respect, you are just another "us against them" angry group. And I am fine with that (i.e. I don't want a crusade against all the angry people to make the world a happy place). The hypocrisy though is funny.

arrrg 13y ago
Yeah, you are right, I apologise for offending you. If you unpack that it means that I think I should have written my original comment differently. I do not divide people. If creationists are persecuted for their beliefs I will stand right by their side. No questions asked. And that’s not so much the point. The problem I have with creationists is their belief in something demonstrably false and their attempts to push that false belief on other people, especially in schools. That doesn’t make me assume that they are also racist or stupid or any of those things. Yes, I will speak out loudly and harshly against creationists when their belief is harmful to other people. And I will roll my eyes when it’s something they believe merely in private. And that’s that. In that context the comparison to trans* people makes no sense at all. There really isn’t much of an argument there. Respecting trans* people for who they are doesn’t harm anyone else. They are not trying to convince anyone of anything demonstrably false. And so, yeah, denying them that is extreme bigotry. It’s denying them their basic human dignity for just no reason at all. The belief that the earth is 6000 years old and the belief that trans* people exist and that gender dysphoria is best treated by allowing trans* people to, well, transition are not exactly comparable.
- pandaman 13y ago
  I find cross-dressers funnier than believers in the thousands years old universe. For me a man dressed as woman is demonstrably a man, not a woman and vice versa, quite unlike the age of the universe, which is just a good theory (even if I'd been 10000 y.o. myself and claimed not seeing the creation going on somebody could have asserted that the whole universe had been created just a second ago all together with my memories of past 10000 years). I know, this does not make sense to you but it might give you some insight on what other people are thinking. Anyways, this was just an example of hypocrisy. When you claim to respect feelings it should not have mattered whose feelings you respect. Bringing in the "false" and "true" feelings just underlines the separation between the "good" and "bad" people.
  - arrrg 13y ago
    I think I made the difference between different beliefs quite clear.
  - vacri 13y ago
    could have asserted that the whole universe had been created just a second ago all together with my memories of past 10000 years You believe this is a viable defense, and yet don't believe a similar magic force couldn't turn a man dressed as a woman into a woman? You're willing to accept one argument that requires the universe and everything you know about it to be created in a flash instant, but not another argument that only requires the modification of a very small part of that same universe? It sounds more like you have a priori made your decision and are looking for arguments to support it.
    - pandaman 13y ago
      Please, don't put your words into my mouth. I only objected the use of word "demonstrably" in the context of the age of the Universe. I don't believe the universe is any younger than 14B give or take. I don't believe you can demonstrate that age though. I do believe you can demonstrate sex of a human specimen without consulting with the said specimen. I might be wrong on either account but neither is important enough for me to throughly investigate.
detcader 13y ago
"mocking people who believe that a man can become a woman by claiming to be one is an extreme bigotry comparable only to enslavement of blacks" the people who concoct these kinds of straw-men, in my experience, are always troubled and hateful, especially in their self-hate. I wish you luck in your life, and hope your family is there to help you when the time comes.

arrrg 13y ago

Yeah, you are right, I apologise for offending you. If you unpack that it means that I think I should have written my original comment differently. I do not divide people. If creationists are persecuted for their beliefs I will stand right by their side. No questions asked. And that’s not so much the point. The problem I have with creationists is their belief in something demonstrably false and their attempts to push that false belief on other people, especially in schools. That doesn’t make me assume that they are also racist or stupid or any of those things. Yes, I will speak out loudly and harshly against creationists when their belief is harmful to other people. And I will roll my eyes when it’s something they believe merely in private. And that’s that. In that context the comparison to trans* people makes no sense at all. There really isn’t much of an argument there. Respecting trans* people for who they are doesn’t harm anyone else. They are not trying to convince anyone of anything demonstrably false. And so, yeah, denying them that is extreme bigotry. It’s denying them their basic human dignity for just no reason at all. The belief that the earth is 6000 years old and the belief that trans* people exist and that gender dysphoria is best treated by allowing trans* people to, well, transition are not exactly comparable.

pandaman 13y ago
I find cross-dressers funnier than believers in the thousands years old universe. For me a man dressed as woman is demonstrably a man, not a woman and vice versa, quite unlike the age of the universe, which is just a good theory (even if I'd been 10000 y.o. myself and claimed not seeing the creation going on somebody could have asserted that the whole universe had been created just a second ago all together with my memories of past 10000 years). I know, this does not make sense to you but it might give you some insight on what other people are thinking. Anyways, this was just an example of hypocrisy. When you claim to respect feelings it should not have mattered whose feelings you respect. Bringing in the "false" and "true" feelings just underlines the separation between the "good" and "bad" people.
- arrrg 13y ago
  I think I made the difference between different beliefs quite clear.
- vacri 13y ago
  could have asserted that the whole universe had been created just a second ago all together with my memories of past 10000 years You believe this is a viable defense, and yet don't believe a similar magic force couldn't turn a man dressed as a woman into a woman? You're willing to accept one argument that requires the universe and everything you know about it to be created in a flash instant, but not another argument that only requires the modification of a very small part of that same universe? It sounds more like you have a priori made your decision and are looking for arguments to support it.
  - pandaman 13y ago
    Please, don't put your words into my mouth. I only objected the use of word "demonstrably" in the context of the age of the Universe. I don't believe the universe is any younger than 14B give or take. I don't believe you can demonstrate that age though. I do believe you can demonstrate sex of a human specimen without consulting with the said specimen. I might be wrong on either account but neither is important enough for me to throughly investigate.

detcader 13y ago

"mocking people who believe that a man can become a woman by claiming to be one is an extreme bigotry comparable only to enslavement of blacks" the people who concoct these kinds of straw-men, in my experience, are always troubled and hateful, especially in their self-hate. I wish you luck in your life, and hope your family is there to help you when the time comes.