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This applies to virtually any item on that list. The questions are good, but the lack of ambition bothers me. But maybe that's just me, I would always prefer t

This applies to virtually any item on that list. The questions are good, but the lack of ambition bothers me. But maybe that's just me, I would always prefer to work at the place that isn't 100% perfect but will give me the opportunity to change things. Much more of challenge in that than just being a replacement cog in an already perfectly tuned machine.

quanticle 13y ago
There's a huge difference between "we don't have tests and we don't see the value in automated testing", and "we don't have tests right now, but automated testing and process improvements are something we're working on". I suspect you're talking about the latter, whereas OP is talking about the former. Culture is a lot harder to change than code. If the people already there don't see the value in process improvement, then attempting to introduce any sort of process improvement will be a Sisyphean task. You'll make progress only to see it get rolled back time and again by teammates who just don't believe in what you're doing. Take automated tests as an example. I have worked at a place where I committed automated tests and configured them to run before build. Then, I got a bug report for a module I had worked on and wrote a test suite for. The test suite should have caught the bug... had it not been disabled by another developer who'd committed the breaking change and, instead of investigating why the test failed, just dropped @ignore annotations until the tests passed again. That's the sort of thing that OP is warning against. Life isn't long enough to spend time bashing your head into walls like that.
dinkumthinkum 13y ago
This is actually a very useful and insightful comment rather than the obligatory "What!? You aren't using tool X that I watched a YouTube vid about!? No way I'm working here!" responses you expect in these kinds of threads.
damncabbage 13y ago
There's a baseline level of competency I'm willing to work with. I've had to fight for basic things (like version control) over and over again, and I'm fed up to the point of not wanting to fight those wars again every time I join another company. The lack of testing culture, for example, was what first drove me away from PHP (to Ruby). Every PHP role interview, I'd gingerly have to ask if they knew what Automated Testing was ("Yes? Great. Have you done any yet? ... No? You don't want to? Oh."), whereas at every interview for a Ruby role I've basically gotten a "Of course we're testing. What else would you be doing?" response. Once you get past talking about things up to the baseline, you can start the real interview.

quanticle 13y ago

There's a huge difference between "we don't have tests and we don't see the value in automated testing", and "we don't have tests right now, but automated testing and process improvements are something we're working on". I suspect you're talking about the latter, whereas OP is talking about the former. Culture is a lot harder to change than code. If the people already there don't see the value in process improvement, then attempting to introduce any sort of process improvement will be a Sisyphean task. You'll make progress only to see it get rolled back time and again by teammates who just don't believe in what you're doing. Take automated tests as an example. I have worked at a place where I committed automated tests and configured them to run before build. Then, I got a bug report for a module I had worked on and wrote a test suite for. The test suite should have caught the bug... had it not been disabled by another developer who'd committed the breaking change and, instead of investigating why the test failed, just dropped @ignore annotations until the tests passed again. That's the sort of thing that OP is warning against. Life isn't long enough to spend time bashing your head into walls like that.

dinkumthinkum 13y ago

This is actually a very useful and insightful comment rather than the obligatory "What!? You aren't using tool X that I watched a YouTube vid about!? No way I'm working here!" responses you expect in these kinds of threads.

damncabbage 13y ago

There's a baseline level of competency I'm willing to work with. I've had to fight for basic things (like version control) over and over again, and I'm fed up to the point of not wanting to fight those wars again every time I join another company. The lack of testing culture, for example, was what first drove me away from PHP (to Ruby). Every PHP role interview, I'd gingerly have to ask if they knew what Automated Testing was ("Yes? Great. Have you done any yet? ... No? You don't want to? Oh."), whereas at every interview for a Ruby role I've basically gotten a "Of course we're testing. What else would you be doing?" response. Once you get past talking about things up to the baseline, you can start the real interview.