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Mass surveillance is the natural state of man. When humans lived in clans and tribes, everybody knew everyone else's business, including the leaders. Today, t

by codex 13y ago

Mass surveillance is the natural state of man. When humans lived in clans and tribes, everybody knew everyone else's business, including the leaders. Today, that social surveillance network still exists (tips given to police, etc.) but in a degraded form now that people live more individually. People instinctively dislike spying because they want to be in control of their own PR (social status), and secrecy gives them advantage even while it hurts society as a whole due to information asymmetries. Gossip networks tend to distort the true picture as well. This, humans evolved to protect their own secrets while simultaneously snooping and gossiping on their neighbors. However, living in an organized society involves compromise for the greater good, and community surveillance is one of those compromises. One might as well ask why the Brits accept paying taxes. Instinctively, you hate to part with your money, but you must do it.

recuter 13y ago
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Mass surveillance is a terrible idea not because of the potential for personal embarrassment but rather for the countless ways it can go very wrong.
- ne0codex 13y ago
  Other ideas have the potential of going very wrong, it's in the implementation, which sounds like a challenge worth attempting to take
  - recuter 13y ago
    What for? A tiny bump in crime fighting efficacy? I assure you, there are many other more cost effective ways to do that.
Silhouette 13y ago
Mass surveillance is the natural state of man. So is beating up your weak neighbour to take his food for your dinner. We're supposed to be more civilised than that by now.
- seiji 13y ago
  No, that's what law is for. Look at any of the half dozen recent "whoops, you weren't a founder after all" legal kurfuffles removing millions of dollars from people ("ex-friends, now enemies").
  - izzle9 13y ago
    and laws are created by a civilised society.
PavlovsCat 13y ago
How is everybody being spied on by a very small minority information symmetry?
kazagistar 13y ago
However, permanent record is in no way the natural state of man. The problem of constant surveillance now is problematic, but only to a limited extent because of how surprisingly not evil the people watching are; black bags and public executions are reserved for people with funny skin and strange religions in far away places. However, there is an even bigger problem in that the surveillance record stays. It follows us around forever. Any mistake or error you make will haunt you til the rest of your days. People are forgetful, but less forgiving. If you "fix" forgetfulness, and make memory of your actions eternal and immortal, you destroy second chances.
- allochthon 13y ago
  It follows us around forever. Any mistake or error you make will haunt you til the rest of your days. I can't help but think that we've crossed that bridge, and that in the near future everything about anyone will forever be obtainable. Avoiding this situation will require collaboration around safeguarding individual privacy on a scale we haven't accomplished up to now.
- mpyne 13y ago
  > However, there is an even bigger problem in that the surveillance record stays. It follows us around forever. Any mistake or error you make will haunt you til the rest of your days. Well, Google certainly retains things for longer than NSA or GCHQ does, and in any event you're describing a problem that is not new or peculiar to the Internet. Anon is already quite fond of reminding us that "The Internet Does Not Forget". They mean this in regard to the actions of states or corporations, but the shoe does apply to the other foot. Likewise the government already maintains permanent private and public records on many people as a matter of course. The Germans have a very insightful legal structure on data privacy which basically forbids both collection of needless data and retention past relatively short timeframes, but I suspect that it will eventually become yet another way of trying to wash away reality via the law, as we see so often in the U.S. The Internet has popped the data genie well and truly out of its bottle, and it's high time we came to grips with that. > If you "fix" forgetfulness, and make memory of your actions eternal and immortal, you destroy second chances. Not at all. The correct action is in any event to allow for second chances fully appreciating that the person has previous faults. For starters it's only fair; none of us are perfect. But also, we already live in a world where people end up with scarlet letters and so it is already necessary (not simply a good idea, but required) the the law and society both are able to give people second chances. If we can't already give second chances then we have much bigger problems to solve as a society. If we can give second chances already then the idea of our mistakes being captured can simply become a new normal, just like cell phones replaced landlines and automobiles replaced the horse and buggy.
quasque 13y ago
What you describe - with everyone knowing everyone else's business - is not mass surveillance. Surveillance is "watching from above", that is the observation of individuals by those higher up the hierarchy of power. By extension, mass surveillance is this but applied to a significantly large segment of the population.
dinkumthinkum 13y ago
That's hand waving. Mass surveillance is not the natural state of "man." You have an cartoonish or idealized view of history and oversimplifying to make some point that doesn't quite make it.

by codex 13y ago

recuter 13y ago

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Mass surveillance is a terrible idea not because of the potential for personal embarrassment but rather for the countless ways it can go very wrong.

ne0codex 13y ago
Other ideas have the potential of going very wrong, it's in the implementation, which sounds like a challenge worth attempting to take
- recuter 13y ago
  What for? A tiny bump in crime fighting efficacy? I assure you, there are many other more cost effective ways to do that.

Silhouette 13y ago

Mass surveillance is the natural state of man. So is beating up your weak neighbour to take his food for your dinner. We're supposed to be more civilised than that by now.

seiji 13y ago
No, that's what law is for. Look at any of the half dozen recent "whoops, you weren't a founder after all" legal kurfuffles removing millions of dollars from people ("ex-friends, now enemies").
- izzle9 13y ago
  and laws are created by a civilised society.

PavlovsCat 13y ago

How is everybody being spied on by a very small minority information symmetry?

kazagistar 13y ago

However, permanent record is in no way the natural state of man. The problem of constant surveillance now is problematic, but only to a limited extent because of how surprisingly not evil the people watching are; black bags and public executions are reserved for people with funny skin and strange religions in far away places. However, there is an even bigger problem in that the surveillance record stays. It follows us around forever. Any mistake or error you make will haunt you til the rest of your days. People are forgetful, but less forgiving. If you "fix" forgetfulness, and make memory of your actions eternal and immortal, you destroy second chances.

allochthon 13y ago
It follows us around forever. Any mistake or error you make will haunt you til the rest of your days. I can't help but think that we've crossed that bridge, and that in the near future everything about anyone will forever be obtainable. Avoiding this situation will require collaboration around safeguarding individual privacy on a scale we haven't accomplished up to now.
mpyne 13y ago
> However, there is an even bigger problem in that the surveillance record stays. It follows us around forever. Any mistake or error you make will haunt you til the rest of your days. Well, Google certainly retains things for longer than NSA or GCHQ does, and in any event you're describing a problem that is not new or peculiar to the Internet. Anon is already quite fond of reminding us that "The Internet Does Not Forget". They mean this in regard to the actions of states or corporations, but the shoe does apply to the other foot. Likewise the government already maintains permanent private and public records on many people as a matter of course. The Germans have a very insightful legal structure on data privacy which basically forbids both collection of needless data and retention past relatively short timeframes, but I suspect that it will eventually become yet another way of trying to wash away reality via the law, as we see so often in the U.S. The Internet has popped the data genie well and truly out of its bottle, and it's high time we came to grips with that. > If you "fix" forgetfulness, and make memory of your actions eternal and immortal, you destroy second chances. Not at all. The correct action is in any event to allow for second chances fully appreciating that the person has previous faults. For starters it's only fair; none of us are perfect. But also, we already live in a world where people end up with scarlet letters and so it is already necessary (not simply a good idea, but required) the the law and society both are able to give people second chances. If we can't already give second chances then we have much bigger problems to solve as a society. If we can give second chances already then the idea of our mistakes being captured can simply become a new normal, just like cell phones replaced landlines and automobiles replaced the horse and buggy.

quasque 13y ago

What you describe - with everyone knowing everyone else's business - is not mass surveillance. Surveillance is "watching from above", that is the observation of individuals by those higher up the hierarchy of power. By extension, mass surveillance is this but applied to a significantly large segment of the population.

dinkumthinkum 13y ago

That's hand waving. Mass surveillance is not the natural state of "man." You have an cartoonish or idealized view of history and oversimplifying to make some point that doesn't quite make it.