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By that logic, assembly is the best language to learn programming. Presumably it is easier to learn about concepts with a language that has them.

gizmo 13y ago
Obviously I'm not suggesting that assembler is the best teaching language. I could also take your logic and use it to conclude that C++ is the best programming language to learn first because with C++ you can learn about the implications of heap corruption when improperly handling exceptions in constructors. C++ allows functional, procedural and OO and many more programming styles. It supports manual and automatic memory management. It can be used to teach high level and low level programming constructs. But I think we're all in agreement that C++ is not a good first language to learn despite (or because of) its versatility. I think Python is a very accessible programming language that still has enough depth to go into a lot of interesting CS subjects. That Python doesn't have manual memory management or support for true multiple inheritance means that you can't teach those things effectively with Python, and I'm completely OK with that trade-off.
- skrishnamurthi 13y ago
  Defining basic data structures is a pain. See the example on the Pyret homepage. I am already seeing a trend in Python tutorials where they just stay away from complex data, and stick to what is easy to encode in the data structures that Python does provide (lists, dictionaries, arrays). We've seen this movie before: it's what happened when languages like Fortran, Pascal, and C dominated programming education, and the fact that they made some data (particularly of the linear kind) really easy and others a nuisance meant that curricula diverted towards the path of least resistance. It's harder now to spot the pattern because it's better hidden. But it's still there.
tokenrove 13y ago
Actually, there's a (devil's advocate) argument for teaching assembly first. After all, TAOCP is all assembly for good reason. Many programmers who never learn any assembly language lack a kind of procedural literacy, as well as a mechanical sympathy, which are a big part of the craft of programming. But, as you state, there are a lot of higher-level programming concepts you can't effectively learn in assembler (one imagines a bizarrely circuitous route around learning to build compilers in assembly (via Forth perhaps) in order to teach lexical scoping or similar).

gizmo 13y ago

Obviously I'm not suggesting that assembler is the best teaching language. I could also take your logic and use it to conclude that C++ is the best programming language to learn first because with C++ you can learn about the implications of heap corruption when improperly handling exceptions in constructors. C++ allows functional, procedural and OO and many more programming styles. It supports manual and automatic memory management. It can be used to teach high level and low level programming constructs. But I think we're all in agreement that C++ is not a good first language to learn despite (or because of) its versatility. I think Python is a very accessible programming language that still has enough depth to go into a lot of interesting CS subjects. That Python doesn't have manual memory management or support for true multiple inheritance means that you can't teach those things effectively with Python, and I'm completely OK with that trade-off.

skrishnamurthi 13y ago
Defining basic data structures is a pain. See the example on the Pyret homepage. I am already seeing a trend in Python tutorials where they just stay away from complex data, and stick to what is easy to encode in the data structures that Python does provide (lists, dictionaries, arrays). We've seen this movie before: it's what happened when languages like Fortran, Pascal, and C dominated programming education, and the fact that they made some data (particularly of the linear kind) really easy and others a nuisance meant that curricula diverted towards the path of least resistance. It's harder now to spot the pattern because it's better hidden. But it's still there.

tokenrove 13y ago

Actually, there's a (devil's advocate) argument for teaching assembly first. After all, TAOCP is all assembly for good reason. Many programmers who never learn any assembly language lack a kind of procedural literacy, as well as a mechanical sympathy, which are a big part of the craft of programming. But, as you state, there are a lot of higher-level programming concepts you can't effectively learn in assembler (one imagines a bizarrely circuitous route around learning to build compilers in assembly (via Forth perhaps) in order to teach lexical scoping or similar).