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To me that means that it's time to start selling. There is no fundamental reason why Bitcoin is rising so fast, it seems like speculation to me. I'm not one of

by d4vlx 13y ago

To me that means that it's time to start selling. There is no fundamental reason why Bitcoin is rising so fast, it seems like speculation to me. I'm not one of the Bitcoin haters either, I've been heavily involved the last 6 months, I just don't see any major reason for this spike other than the usual speculative arguments. If Bitcoin shouldn't be spent then what use are they?

oleganza 13y ago
One way to start selling a bit of your stash is to actually spend some part of it. No hassle with exchanges, no fees and no tax implications. Historically, people were more willing to "cash out" by spending coins during boom periods: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=7&show_header=true&scale=0&address= https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popu...
- d4vlx 13y ago
  > One way to start selling a bit is to actually spend them. That is what I was getting at, in order for Bitcoin to have a reason to exist people must spend them on goods and services. Bitcoin most likely would not exist for long if it became purely a store of wealth. Not that that will happens but many people are treating that way. > no tax implications Wouldn't that be tax evasion?
  - Toucan 13y ago
    UK point of view: No, it's tax avoidance. Tax will still be paid in the form of VAT/Sales Tax and Corporation Tax. You avoid paying Capital Gains tax.
  - oleganza 13y ago
    If bitcoin becomes a universal "store of wealth" it automatically becomes the only currency: most marketable, most liquid, cheapest to transport and store currency. See my big comment on how this happens elsewhere in the comments in this post. Gold is not currency because it's too damn expensive to store and move. Capital gains tax evasion - maybe, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not advocating it. But it's clearly a motivation for some people to spend bitcoins directly without going through an exchange.
panarky 13y ago
Yes, it's speculative. Yes, there's no intrinsic value. Yes, the exchange rate could fall by 90%, or expand by 10,000%. It's also true that Bitcoin has survived and thrived far longer than experts predicted. Acceptance is increasing rapidly, and globally. Pretty cool how all of these things can be true at the same time.
- jedunnigan 13y ago
  > Yes, there's no intrinsic value. I always find this argument silly, as I see intrinsic value in finance as a logical fallacy, but I'll entertain the idea anyway. From Wikipedia: >In commodity money, intrinsic value can be partially or entirely due to the desirable features of the object as a medium of exchange and a store of value. Examples of such features include divisibility; easily and securely storable and transportable; scarcity; and difficulty to counterfeit. I see Bitcoin as three things: a commodity, a 'trust-less' payment network and a distributed ledger. Now, those are all value-worthy features in my book, especially the latter two. If you live in a bankless country without a stable currency, Bitcoin is a very powerful tool that has 'intrinsic' value in its capacity to serve your financial needs where other instruments have failed or are entirely absent. Same goes for folk stuck in countries with severe capital controls or vicious austerity measures. If gold has "intrinsic value", so does Bitcoin. In fact, Bitcoin has more value from that perspective; since when you could you divide gold infinitely? It's also counterfeitable; Bitcoin, not so much. That's what all these clowns like Joe Weisenthal don't seem to understand because they are so caught up in their own ideas of sound money that they can't see the value that Bitcoin brings to the table. Their loss.
rmc 13y ago
> There is no fundamental reason why Bitcoin is rising so fast Sure there is. The goal of BitCoin is to be as popular as USD and EUR. There are maximum of 21,000,000 bitcoin. Imagine owning 1/21,000,000th of all the USD!
- petercooper 13y ago
  Imagine owning 1/21,000,000th of all the USD! Based on M0, you'd have about $148,090.
  - pdog 13y ago
    It probably makes more sense to compare it to the broader M2 and M3 money supply.
    - meric 13y ago
      Why do you say that? If and when bitcoins become borrowed and deposited at banks, there can potentially be a lot more supply of bitcoins.
    - petercooper 13y ago
      A genuine 'why?' I'm reasonably naive on these issues, but there's no fractional reserve banking of Bitcoin yet, is there? M2 and M3 include savings, all of which couldn't be converted directly into underlying currency, whereas every Bitcoin is clearly traceable and exists as a unit of currency. Disclaimer: I am no economist or financier.
  - rmc 13y ago
    But you can buy 1 bitcoin for ~ $300 today. That means in a few years, it'll be worth $148,090!!! No wonder the price is going up! (presume bitcoin takes off this way)
- grey-area 13y ago
  There are maximum of 21,000,000 bitcoin. I find this limit a really interesting part of the bitcoin experiment. What sets the limit though? Is it technically possible for the developers to revise this limit at a later date, thus causing a drop in value for existing holders?

by d4vlx 13y ago

oleganza 13y ago

One way to start selling a bit of your stash is to actually spend some part of it. No hassle with exchanges, no fees and no tax implications. Historically, people were more willing to "cash out" by spending coins during boom periods: https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popular?timespan=all&showDataPoints=false&daysAverageString=7&show_header=true&scale=0&address= https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-excluding-popu...

d4vlx 13y ago
> One way to start selling a bit is to actually spend them. That is what I was getting at, in order for Bitcoin to have a reason to exist people must spend them on goods and services. Bitcoin most likely would not exist for long if it became purely a store of wealth. Not that that will happens but many people are treating that way. > no tax implications Wouldn't that be tax evasion?
- Toucan 13y ago
  UK point of view: No, it's tax avoidance. Tax will still be paid in the form of VAT/Sales Tax and Corporation Tax. You avoid paying Capital Gains tax.
- oleganza 13y ago
  If bitcoin becomes a universal "store of wealth" it automatically becomes the only currency: most marketable, most liquid, cheapest to transport and store currency. See my big comment on how this happens elsewhere in the comments in this post. Gold is not currency because it's too damn expensive to store and move. Capital gains tax evasion - maybe, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not advocating it. But it's clearly a motivation for some people to spend bitcoins directly without going through an exchange.

panarky 13y ago

Yes, it's speculative. Yes, there's no intrinsic value. Yes, the exchange rate could fall by 90%, or expand by 10,000%. It's also true that Bitcoin has survived and thrived far longer than experts predicted. Acceptance is increasing rapidly, and globally. Pretty cool how all of these things can be true at the same time.

jedunnigan 13y ago
> Yes, there's no intrinsic value. I always find this argument silly, as I see intrinsic value in finance as a logical fallacy, but I'll entertain the idea anyway. From Wikipedia: >In commodity money, intrinsic value can be partially or entirely due to the desirable features of the object as a medium of exchange and a store of value. Examples of such features include divisibility; easily and securely storable and transportable; scarcity; and difficulty to counterfeit. I see Bitcoin as three things: a commodity, a 'trust-less' payment network and a distributed ledger. Now, those are all value-worthy features in my book, especially the latter two. If you live in a bankless country without a stable currency, Bitcoin is a very powerful tool that has 'intrinsic' value in its capacity to serve your financial needs where other instruments have failed or are entirely absent. Same goes for folk stuck in countries with severe capital controls or vicious austerity measures. If gold has "intrinsic value", so does Bitcoin. In fact, Bitcoin has more value from that perspective; since when you could you divide gold infinitely? It's also counterfeitable; Bitcoin, not so much. That's what all these clowns like Joe Weisenthal don't seem to understand because they are so caught up in their own ideas of sound money that they can't see the value that Bitcoin brings to the table. Their loss.

rmc 13y ago

> There is no fundamental reason why Bitcoin is rising so fast Sure there is. The goal of BitCoin is to be as popular as USD and EUR. There are maximum of 21,000,000 bitcoin. Imagine owning 1/21,000,000th of all the USD!

petercooper 13y ago
Imagine owning 1/21,000,000th of all the USD! Based on M0, you'd have about $148,090.
- pdog 13y ago
  It probably makes more sense to compare it to the broader M2 and M3 money supply.
  - meric 13y ago
    Why do you say that? If and when bitcoins become borrowed and deposited at banks, there can potentially be a lot more supply of bitcoins.
  - petercooper 13y ago
    A genuine 'why?' I'm reasonably naive on these issues, but there's no fractional reserve banking of Bitcoin yet, is there? M2 and M3 include savings, all of which couldn't be converted directly into underlying currency, whereas every Bitcoin is clearly traceable and exists as a unit of currency. Disclaimer: I am no economist or financier.
- rmc 13y ago
  But you can buy 1 bitcoin for ~ $300 today. That means in a few years, it'll be worth $148,090!!! No wonder the price is going up! (presume bitcoin takes off this way)
grey-area 13y ago
There are maximum of 21,000,000 bitcoin. I find this limit a really interesting part of the bitcoin experiment. What sets the limit though? Is it technically possible for the developers to revise this limit at a later date, thus causing a drop in value for existing holders?