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Row over US mobile phone 'cockroach backpack' app

63 points by T-A 13y ago

thaumasiotes 13y ago
I don't see "rights for cockroaches" picking up mass support. This is an animal we purposefully kill by the thousands upon thousands just because they're annoying.
- muglug 13y ago
  Killing an animal quickly and efficiently is generally held to be more "humane" than torturing it endlessly (and keeping it alive). It's the reason people put sickly pets down, rather than letting them suffer for months.
  - visarga 13y ago
    > torturing it endlessly That is only the case if it has the concept of suffering. Does it?
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      I don't agree with your premise here. I'm sure cockroaches have no concept of existential suffering, of the 'how unfortunate I am' variety. That doesn't mean they don't experience pain while it's being administered, and this backpack thing doesn't exactly look comfortable.
      - gnerd 13y ago
        According to the website [1], it is fairly debatable that they "feel pain" and if they do, they are anaesthetised. > Criticism: This enables and encourages kids to harm animals > The cockroach is anesthetized during the surgery to avoid the risk of the cockroach experiencing pain (though it is debatable whether they experience pain at all), and the cockroach adapts to the stimulation rapidly. The 55 Hz stimulation we use is the same frequency used in electrical stimulation to treat human diseases such as Parkinson's. [1] https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach
        anigbrowl 13y ago
        I've always felt pretty sore when I wake up after surgery, and I didn't have a comparatively huge electrode sticking into me.
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    The company PR is quite obviously, as claimed, "disingenuous": > The spokeswoman insisted that the insects are treated humanely and that the backpack - first developed in 2011 - does not harm them. Boring a hole in the head, and then another hole in the chest, and then clipping the antennae, so you can attach an apparatus which appears to roughly half the size of the roach itself and which exerts major control over its motion, does not approach "humane". Anyone found doing this to humans could very reasonably be lynched. I'd prefer to see the company own it. To repurpose an argument I first saw on that bastion of philosophical thought cracked.com, "Cockroaches? Fuck 'em." Focus on the scientific potential of remote-controlled cockroaches. Cockroaches have no rights that man is bound to respect. [1] There are no conceivable benefits to extending them any rights. And I'm not particularly worried that a child who grows up thinking of insects as something to be used or abused as they see fit will mistreat humans. I burned ants with a magnifying glass. It didn't seem to bother anyone. I went on to burn my sister's name into a block of wood as a gift. That's pretty much where things ended. If a child of mine showed any interest in this sort of thing, I'd be happy to sponsor it. The article actually made me wonder whether the cockroach lives through installation; I have read that cockroaches "live on" for a period of weeks after being beheaded. It would be really, really cool to get something like this that - didn't prevent other cockroaches from accepting the bugged one - didn't block the roach from fitting through gaps it would normally be able to fit through. - included a highly miniaturized video camera > It's the reason people put sickly pets down, rather than letting them suffer for months. People are generally (there might be exceptions) more attached to their own pets than they are to other people's cockroaches. [1] http://www.acslaw.org/acsblog/no-rights-which-the-white-man-was-bound-to-respect http://www.acslaw.org/acsblog/no-rights-which-the-white-man-...
    - gnerd 13y ago
      > Boring a hole in the head, and then another hole in the chest According to the article and the instructions[1] there is only one hole and it is in the thorax (through the exoskeleton), which is the middle section and not the head at all (remember from primary school biology, insects have a head, thorax and abdomen). Not making a case for or against this method or product, just saying. [1] http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery
  - auctiontheory 13y ago
    I don't think you understand what is done in research labs around the world every day, to mammals, monkeys, even apes.
    - VladRussian2 13y ago
      and starting with insects makes it easier for transition to torturing of sentient beings. It isn't about what a cockroach feels (lets hope not much), it is about what doing it to cockroach does to the mentality of the one who does it. What happens in the labs must stop. And one of the sure way to do it is to not let children to grow into torturers.
      - gnerd 13y ago
        I am torn about medical experiments on animals but I think the distinction needs to be made between what happens in a lab (with ethical frameworks) and what happens in civilian life for entertainment.
        VladRussian2 13y ago
        that distinction exists only for us, ie. ones who do it. It doesn't exist for subjects of our actions. Refusal to understand it that is so widespread trough the society is a major roadblock in development of emphatic ability which is the key to triggering the next qualitative stage of the human species brain development.
      - DougN7 13y ago
        I don't want to start a comment war, but your reasoning is a big part of why I'm against abortion. I would truely be interested to know how the views on the cockroach/torture folks overlap (or not) with their thoughts on abortion.
        VladRussian2 13y ago
        we start as a lump of quickly dividing cell, a tumor of a kind. We progress though fish-stage, reptile, etc... Different people have different decency standards wrt. killing and torture of living organisms. As we know the society-wide the standard is pretty low - everything, except humans in majority of situation, can be killed and everything, except (thanks God for animal rights people) majority of mammals in majority of situations, tortured. My personal standard as of now is that killing of insects/fish ok, reptiles and birds - don't like it, yet still somewhat ok, and no killing for mammals, and no torture for anybody (at least what i can perceive as a torture). Thus i personally think the abortion is ok up to about week 6-7.
  - Intermernet 13y ago
    Admittedly death by pyrethroids (most insecticides) is basically death by paralysis, and can't be too pleasant either. I usually resort to the bottom of a shoe as it's the fastest way.
- DanBC 13y ago
  > I don't see "rights for cockroaches" picking up mass support. About 6% of the world population is Buddhist. That's about 350m people who believe cockroaches have rights. EDIT: mr_luc and thaumasiotes point out my obvious error!
  - mr_luc 13y ago
    All 350m? That's like saying that the billion or so nominal Christians are anti-war, because the canonical Christian writings are clearly anti-war, and particularly 'pure' devotees may preach it, and a few may take a principled stand against it ... but in practice, Christians go to war in large numbers. (Exactly like Buddhists, I might add). In general, the little Laotian mother trying to keep her house clean is not too concerned about the rights of cockroaches. Like most religious adherents, most Buddhists essentially pay a class of professional adherents to be devout, so they don't have to be. :)
    - mithras 13y ago
      I live in Laos and can confirm the official doctrine is to not hurt any animals. Many people however use the heaviest antibug spray available. Very very few vegetarians around as well.
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    You might want to be careful attributing beliefs that are part of Buddhist doctrine to people who avow that they are Buddhists. The overlap (for any religion, not just Buddhism) isn't all that large.
Apocryphon 13y ago
Yeah, I'm sorry, this is pretty horrific. The technology behind it is amazing, and the company should be applauded for trying to get children interested in neuroscience, but to hijack a living creature like that? Being squashed by the boot of a shoe seems merciful in comparison to being turned into a Pokémon. Of course, the above is a response based on emotion, maybe aesthetic grounds. I'm sure a bioethicist can create a better argument against this.
- throwaway0094 13y ago
  This type of cockroach control is pretty par for the course in undergrad anatomy lab sections... I think the only part that seems weird is the gamification of making it a remote control app.
  - nl 13y ago
    Undergrad labs sessions also sometimes involve taking organs from a recently deceased human and dissecting them. Do that in your kitchen and you get labelled a murderer. Context is everything.
    - thaumasiotes 13y ago
      > Do that in your kitchen and you get labelled a murderer. No, you don't. You get labeled a freak, and you may or may not be charged under health-related laws. To be labelled a murderer, you have to kill someone.
      - nl 13y ago
        I suspect that rather depends on where you got those organs. (As an aside.. what purpose do you think your comment served? Do you really consider that I - the author - or anyone reading it didn't realize you have to kill someone to commit murder? It was an analogy, and I deliberately made it succinct. The point of the comment you replied to was "context is everything". To be fair, you have made that point rather well, although I suspect that wasn't deliberately.)
graeme 13y ago
Does anyone have more detail on how this works? If it's possible to effectively control cockroaches, then the real application would be military and espionage. Just think of the places cockroaches can go, especially if it's possible to further reduce the size of the apparatus and/or camouflage it.
- visarga 13y ago
  I think it's been done with rats too. Those would be more effective. Yeah, found the link: Roborats: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/05/0501_020501_roborats.html http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/05/0501_020501_... The horror!
- dan1234 13y ago
  They replace the cockroach's antennae with the electronics, which are used to send fake information to the cockroach's brain. This was actually featured on HN back when this project was on kickstarter.
- gnerd 13y ago
  You can find the information on the product website[1] and the instructions[2]. Effectively it just replaces the antennae with electrodes that provide stimulation at 55Hz. So it can just make the cockroach go left or right (assuming it is moving). There doesn't seem to be any other control, so you (presumably) cannot make the cockroach go forward, backward, up, down, faster or slower. I imaging to get that sort of control they would need to hijack more sense organs or the brain itself. I guess the human analogy would be like overriding the inner-ear mechanisms (Vestibular system) to control balance (left and right). [1] https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach [2] http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery
jl6 13y ago
I feel that using cockroaches like this might be justifiable for the purpose of research, but doing this for what amounts to entertainment is quite dark.
brd529 13y ago
Fast forward a ten years. Is it inconceivable a similar technology will work on humans? I've read we already have the reverse - quadriplegic people can control a mouse on a screen by thinking. If this would work on a human, how would a human attached to one of these perceive the foreign control? I'd imagine these electrodes would reproduce the brain signals that cause our muscles to move, but not alter our consciousness. So we would be aware that our own bodies were moving and responding to someone else's control. Imagine for example, wanting to stop walking but your body keeps on putting one foot in front of the other. Scary to lose control. I'm not sure how far fetched that is, but it may be an interesting way to think about the morality of this device on roaches. I'm not sure if we know if roaches have a degree of consciousness, or if they operate 100% on instinct. Either way it's hard not to project or imagine some level of consciousness on the roach. Once you do that, this device seems diabolical.
- dmoney 13y ago
  > how would a human attached to one of these perceive the foreign control? "I have to turn left because it's my job."
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  > If this would work on a human, how would a human attached to one of these perceive the foreign control? I'd imagine these electrodes would reproduce the brain signals that cause our muscles to move, but not alter our consciousness. So we would be aware that our own bodies were moving and responding to someone else's control. Imagine for example, wanting to stop walking but your body keeps on putting one foot in front of the other. Scary to lose control. There is existing research relevant to this question. It concerns people whose corpus callosum (the cable connecting the brain's right and left hemispheres) has been cut. It's possible to present such a person with something (here, a sign with words written on it) that is only visible to one of their eyes, and thus one hemisphere of their brain. It is also possible for such a person to be not consciously aware of what one of their eyes is seeing. If you present, in the field of view which doesn't have conscious awareness, a sign saying e.g. "please stand up", they will. If you then ask them why they did it, they won't know, but they won't say that; they'll make something up like "I was going to get a Coke". There is no evidence that they're being deceptive. So it's quite possible that you'd perceive your controlled actions as voluntary. (I'm not taking a position as to whether that's more or less horrifying than perceiving the control.)
ck2 13y ago
Right.... teach kids that torturing animals is okay and desensitize them. This should end well. We definitely don't have enough mass-killings in society today.
- biff 13y ago
  People used to worry kids ripping wings off of houseflies weren't right in the head. Budding aerospace engineers cheated of their true potential because no U.S. company had the ingenuity to market $100 wing scissors?
  - ck2 13y ago
    Are you saying some kids are born psychopaths? Or that marketeers are? I've observed both ways, where the kids were far more sane than the parents, and then there are kids that turn out evil despite the best parents.
    - biff 13y ago
      Genetics and environment each play a part, I suppose, but cruelty can be a learned behavior. The price point means this is more likely to be used by people who will take it seriously, but it just struck me as a particularly ghoulish piece of kit to put next to the microscope and chemistry set. I read "A Father's Story" not too long ago, so maybe that doesn't help the cause. On the other hand, most of us had at least a couple dissections under our belt by high school, and it wasn't like those critters willingly offered themselves up towards our erudition, either. A practical education in science did seem to involve doing things we could have just read about in books, even if it caused a few nitric acid stains here and there and dozens of fetal pigs to lay down their lives, so maybe I'm being too quick to judge. Now, are marketeers in general psychopaths? I don't think it's a hard and fast rule...
- 001sky 13y ago
  The Michigan-based company has even received emails saying the the backpack - known as Roboroach - "teaches kids to be psychopaths". Have to say, I think I agree.
chrischen 13y ago
How long does the battery last?
rhizome 13y ago
This is growth hacking, right? Seems like a nice PR prank by the company.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
patrickg_zill 13y ago
Amazing, but weird... I am having flashbacks to the cockroach-spy scenes in the movie "Fifth Element".
skuunk1 13y ago
Intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter. If the intent is education, then I condone this, if it is entertainment then I do not.
artificialidiot 13y ago
How do I know that the company spews bullshit? Because it mentions Alzheimer. This is the modern trigger word for asking for funding without stating a concrete goal.
beambot 13y ago
I was a researcher on an analogous research project involving dragonflies [1]. Let me explain the difference: all of our research had strict ethical guidelines backed by IRB approvals, the procedures were performed by trained biologists, and the outcome is fundamental neurology research that will be published in Science or Nature. Meanwhile, these cockroach experiments are being performed w/o oversight, by "citizen scientists", with no apparent outcome other than novelty and staving off boredom. BIG difference. I do not approve. * Thankfully, my work on the dragonfly project was the biotelemetry radio link rather than working with live animals. [1] http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/06/dragonfly-backpack-neuron/ http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/06/dragonfly-backpack... => No control of the dragonflies; only neural telemetry.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  You know, there's a school of thought that says IRB approvals prevent a lot of valuable research from happening. This isn't the ground I would have chosen to stand on to defend them. But beyond that fairly narrow issue, what you're espousing here is an incredibly benighted view. We want "citizen scientists" to be moved by the spirit of inquiry and run the experiments that take their fancy. That's how progress is made. "Novelty and staving off boredom" are a primary motivation for many professional scientists; I still remember the essay I read pointing out that the true scientific mindset was that of an overeager dog who just has to see what's behind that door... and the next one! and the next! Science-related toys for children have long been felt to promote positive goals, like sparking the interest of a future scientist or just raising awareness of what scientists might do. I see complaints all the time that you can't buy a decent chemistry set anymore. And here you're admitting that exactly this sort of experiment can be published in Nature, but children should keep their hands off? You don't see me crusading to keep Lego Mindstorms in professional hands only. I like it when children share my interests. Major progress has been made by serendipity and by "citizen scientists" acting without oversight. And, for that matter, by professional scientists acting without oversight. Making the tools more accessible can only get things to happen faster. You should be ashamed of yourself.
  - DanBC 13y ago
chanux 13y ago
This must be way off topic but did Hitler believe he was doing the right thing? Edit: I once read about the creators of Roboroach defend the idea. I still didn't agree (It's OK for things I disagree with to exist in the world). Their kickstarter is successful so I guess enough people approve the idea. Also I liked how the kicstarter page made Roboroach creator's words look like they are Mashable's. On Roboroach Kickstarter Mashable - "... the RoboRoach is not a toy, but rather a learning tool." On Masahble Gage and Marzullo underline the fact that the RoboRoach is not a toy, but rather a learning tool. The creators are probably truly passionate about their field of work, want it to be just an educational tool and maybe they are right. But I just can't tell this apart from a PR plaster.
deSouza 13y ago
I had never thought I could feel empathy with a cockroach.
rdl 13y ago
This sales campaign has been fairly effective for me; I'll happily pay $99 for this. I boil alive and then eat a close relative of these animals, and other people eat living animals (I just don't like those particular animals). At-home science is at least as defensible.
- goldenkey 13y ago
  Torture is wrong. Especially prolonged torture in the form of forced servitude. How can you claim any degree of moral backing for this practice when its science lacks merits and it is merely a toy of torture?
  - rdl 13y ago
    It's more that it teaches individuals existing science, creating more interest in science and thus potentially future scientists who will push the bounds of human knowledge, vs. this itself advancing the limits of human knowledge. I agree with you about torture, but mitigate that with the lower life form status of cockroaches. I wouldn't support the same thing done to rats, octopus, etc., all things being equal (although I'm ok with less intrusive or more beneficial things done to higher life forms; in the limit, final medical testing on monkeys and humans).
    - DanBC 13y ago
      It's expensive and the science value is low. For $100 you could make most of the stuff on http://scitoys.com/ http://scitoys.com/ While I tend to the more animal rightsy end of the spectrum I tend to agree that putting this on a cockroach isn't too troubling from the point of view of the bug. But does it lead to beetles in vending machines[1] or live turtles in tiny pouches[2]? I don't think we're creating a generation of kids who'll go on to re-create ZippoCat, but it's worth some thought. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/aug/11/jonathanwatts http://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/aug/11/jonathanwatts [2] http://www.geekosystem.com/chinese-turtles-fish-keychains/ http://www.geekosystem.com/chinese-turtles-fish-keychains/ [2] http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/keyrings.asp http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/keyrings.asp
harvey123 13y ago
If I lived in USA, I would take control of these ppl who work for this sick company and force them to do stuff. Where did the roach agree to this? Your so sick. Plz sum 1 from America find this company and kick the shit out of all of them...scum
DougN7 13y ago
Time to risk a hell-ban: I'm genuinely curious how people's views on this being torture and leading to children without empathy, ect coincide with people being against abortion for similar reasons. Does anyone support abortion rights but is against this toy? Or vice versa?
- summerdown2 13y ago
  I support abortion rights but I'm against this toy. I'd have no problem with a device that kills cockroaches faster. I am, however, against cruelty.
- lawtguy 13y ago
  I support the right of a woman to have an abortion, and I'm also very uncomfortable with this product. In general, I think it's OK to cause pain or kill non-sentient beings as long as it leads to a useful end. Killing a cow so we can eat the meat is fine, but you're not allowed to torture it as you kill it [1]. An abortion is also OK on the same grounds: a fetus before 3 months of gestation is definitely not sentient, and killing it could prevent a great deal of hardship. To be clear, I think abortion is horrible, but it could be the least bad option available. For this cockroach control toy, it's not clear that it causes the cockroach any pain, but it sure looks like torture. The potentially utility of it looks rather low as well. I can see that it could be useful for learning (and maybe some science as well) but I suspect at lot of people will buy it just for entertainment. That is what makes me very uncomfortable about this device. [1]: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_slaughter
simon155 13y ago
NOTE: As the spokesman has made a public claim the insects are NOT harmed by the product, you are at liberty to take up complaints via trading standards bodies / regulators and sue. I would encourage everyone to do so. We had a company like that over here - huntingdon life sciences (UK) which as awareness of their activities spread, had regular potests at their offices, preventing workers from working. Once scientists addresses started making public appearance, things very quickly escalated.

63 points by T-A 13y ago

I don't see "rights for cockroaches" picking up mass support. This is an animal we purposefully kill by the thousands upon thousands just because they're annoying.

muglug 13y ago
Killing an animal quickly and efficiently is generally held to be more "humane" than torturing it endlessly (and keeping it alive). It's the reason people put sickly pets down, rather than letting them suffer for months.
- visarga 13y ago
  > torturing it endlessly That is only the case if it has the concept of suffering. Does it?
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    I don't agree with your premise here. I'm sure cockroaches have no concept of existential suffering, of the 'how unfortunate I am' variety. That doesn't mean they don't experience pain while it's being administered, and this backpack thing doesn't exactly look comfortable.
    - gnerd 13y ago
      According to the website [1], it is fairly debatable that they "feel pain" and if they do, they are anaesthetised. > Criticism: This enables and encourages kids to harm animals > The cockroach is anesthetized during the surgery to avoid the risk of the cockroach experiencing pain (though it is debatable whether they experience pain at all), and the cockroach adapts to the stimulation rapidly. The 55 Hz stimulation we use is the same frequency used in electrical stimulation to treat human diseases such as Parkinson's. [1] https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach
      - anigbrowl 13y ago
        I've always felt pretty sore when I wake up after surgery, and I didn't have a comparatively huge electrode sticking into me.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  The company PR is quite obviously, as claimed, "disingenuous": > The spokeswoman insisted that the insects are treated humanely and that the backpack - first developed in 2011 - does not harm them. Boring a hole in the head, and then another hole in the chest, and then clipping the antennae, so you can attach an apparatus which appears to roughly half the size of the roach itself and which exerts major control over its motion, does not approach "humane". Anyone found doing this to humans could very reasonably be lynched. I'd prefer to see the company own it. To repurpose an argument I first saw on that bastion of philosophical thought cracked.com, "Cockroaches? Fuck 'em." Focus on the scientific potential of remote-controlled cockroaches. Cockroaches have no rights that man is bound to respect. [1] There are no conceivable benefits to extending them any rights. And I'm not particularly worried that a child who grows up thinking of insects as something to be used or abused as they see fit will mistreat humans. I burned ants with a magnifying glass. It didn't seem to bother anyone. I went on to burn my sister's name into a block of wood as a gift. That's pretty much where things ended. If a child of mine showed any interest in this sort of thing, I'd be happy to sponsor it. The article actually made me wonder whether the cockroach lives through installation; I have read that cockroaches "live on" for a period of weeks after being beheaded. It would be really, really cool to get something like this that - didn't prevent other cockroaches from accepting the bugged one - didn't block the roach from fitting through gaps it would normally be able to fit through. - included a highly miniaturized video camera > It's the reason people put sickly pets down, rather than letting them suffer for months. People are generally (there might be exceptions) more attached to their own pets than they are to other people's cockroaches. [1] http://www.acslaw.org/acsblog/no-rights-which-the-white-man-was-bound-to-respect http://www.acslaw.org/acsblog/no-rights-which-the-white-man-...
  - gnerd 13y ago
    > Boring a hole in the head, and then another hole in the chest According to the article and the instructions[1] there is only one hole and it is in the thorax (through the exoskeleton), which is the middle section and not the head at all (remember from primary school biology, insects have a head, thorax and abdomen). Not making a case for or against this method or product, just saying. [1] http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery
- auctiontheory 13y ago
  I don't think you understand what is done in research labs around the world every day, to mammals, monkeys, even apes.
  - VladRussian2 13y ago
    and starting with insects makes it easier for transition to torturing of sentient beings. It isn't about what a cockroach feels (lets hope not much), it is about what doing it to cockroach does to the mentality of the one who does it. What happens in the labs must stop. And one of the sure way to do it is to not let children to grow into torturers.
    - gnerd 13y ago
      I am torn about medical experiments on animals but I think the distinction needs to be made between what happens in a lab (with ethical frameworks) and what happens in civilian life for entertainment.
      - VladRussian2 13y ago
        that distinction exists only for us, ie. ones who do it. It doesn't exist for subjects of our actions. Refusal to understand it that is so widespread trough the society is a major roadblock in development of emphatic ability which is the key to triggering the next qualitative stage of the human species brain development.
    - DougN7 13y ago
      I don't want to start a comment war, but your reasoning is a big part of why I'm against abortion. I would truely be interested to know how the views on the cockroach/torture folks overlap (or not) with their thoughts on abortion.
      - VladRussian2 13y ago
        we start as a lump of quickly dividing cell, a tumor of a kind. We progress though fish-stage, reptile, etc... Different people have different decency standards wrt. killing and torture of living organisms. As we know the society-wide the standard is pretty low - everything, except humans in majority of situation, can be killed and everything, except (thanks God for animal rights people) majority of mammals in majority of situations, tortured. My personal standard as of now is that killing of insects/fish ok, reptiles and birds - don't like it, yet still somewhat ok, and no killing for mammals, and no torture for anybody (at least what i can perceive as a torture). Thus i personally think the abortion is ok up to about week 6-7.
- Intermernet 13y ago
  Admittedly death by pyrethroids (most insecticides) is basically death by paralysis, and can't be too pleasant either. I usually resort to the bottom of a shoe as it's the fastest way.
DanBC 13y ago
> I don't see "rights for cockroaches" picking up mass support. About 6% of the world population is Buddhist. That's about 350m people who believe cockroaches have rights. EDIT: mr_luc and thaumasiotes point out my obvious error!
- mr_luc 13y ago
  All 350m? That's like saying that the billion or so nominal Christians are anti-war, because the canonical Christian writings are clearly anti-war, and particularly 'pure' devotees may preach it, and a few may take a principled stand against it ... but in practice, Christians go to war in large numbers. (Exactly like Buddhists, I might add). In general, the little Laotian mother trying to keep her house clean is not too concerned about the rights of cockroaches. Like most religious adherents, most Buddhists essentially pay a class of professional adherents to be devout, so they don't have to be. :)
  - mithras 13y ago
    I live in Laos and can confirm the official doctrine is to not hurt any animals. Many people however use the heaviest antibug spray available. Very very few vegetarians around as well.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  You might want to be careful attributing beliefs that are part of Buddhist doctrine to people who avow that they are Buddhists. The overlap (for any religion, not just Buddhism) isn't all that large.

Apocryphon 13y ago

Yeah, I'm sorry, this is pretty horrific. The technology behind it is amazing, and the company should be applauded for trying to get children interested in neuroscience, but to hijack a living creature like that? Being squashed by the boot of a shoe seems merciful in comparison to being turned into a Pokémon. Of course, the above is a response based on emotion, maybe aesthetic grounds. I'm sure a bioethicist can create a better argument against this.

throwaway0094 13y ago
This type of cockroach control is pretty par for the course in undergrad anatomy lab sections... I think the only part that seems weird is the gamification of making it a remote control app.
- nl 13y ago
  Undergrad labs sessions also sometimes involve taking organs from a recently deceased human and dissecting them. Do that in your kitchen and you get labelled a murderer. Context is everything.
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    > Do that in your kitchen and you get labelled a murderer. No, you don't. You get labeled a freak, and you may or may not be charged under health-related laws. To be labelled a murderer, you have to kill someone.
    - nl 13y ago
      I suspect that rather depends on where you got those organs. (As an aside.. what purpose do you think your comment served? Do you really consider that I - the author - or anyone reading it didn't realize you have to kill someone to commit murder? It was an analogy, and I deliberately made it succinct. The point of the comment you replied to was "context is everything". To be fair, you have made that point rather well, although I suspect that wasn't deliberately.)

graeme 13y ago

Does anyone have more detail on how this works? If it's possible to effectively control cockroaches, then the real application would be military and espionage. Just think of the places cockroaches can go, especially if it's possible to further reduce the size of the apparatus and/or camouflage it.

visarga 13y ago
I think it's been done with rats too. Those would be more effective. Yeah, found the link: Roborats: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/05/0501_020501_roborats.html http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/05/0501_020501_... The horror!
dan1234 13y ago
They replace the cockroach's antennae with the electronics, which are used to send fake information to the cockroach's brain. This was actually featured on HN back when this project was on kickstarter.
gnerd 13y ago
You can find the information on the product website[1] and the instructions[2]. Effectively it just replaces the antennae with electrodes that provide stimulation at 55Hz. So it can just make the cockroach go left or right (assuming it is moving). There doesn't seem to be any other control, so you (presumably) cannot make the cockroach go forward, backward, up, down, faster or slower. I imaging to get that sort of control they would need to hijack more sense organs or the brain itself. I guess the human analogy would be like overriding the inner-ear mechanisms (Vestibular system) to control balance (left and right). [1] https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach https://backyardbrains.com/products/roboroach [2] http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/RoboRoach_Surgery

jl6 13y ago

I feel that using cockroaches like this might be justifiable for the purpose of research, but doing this for what amounts to entertainment is quite dark.

brd529 13y ago

Fast forward a ten years. Is it inconceivable a similar technology will work on humans? I've read we already have the reverse - quadriplegic people can control a mouse on a screen by thinking. If this would work on a human, how would a human attached to one of these perceive the foreign control? I'd imagine these electrodes would reproduce the brain signals that cause our muscles to move, but not alter our consciousness. So we would be aware that our own bodies were moving and responding to someone else's control. Imagine for example, wanting to stop walking but your body keeps on putting one foot in front of the other. Scary to lose control. I'm not sure how far fetched that is, but it may be an interesting way to think about the morality of this device on roaches. I'm not sure if we know if roaches have a degree of consciousness, or if they operate 100% on instinct. Either way it's hard not to project or imagine some level of consciousness on the roach. Once you do that, this device seems diabolical.

dmoney 13y ago
> how would a human attached to one of these perceive the foreign control? "I have to turn left because it's my job."
thaumasiotes 13y ago
> If this would work on a human, how would a human attached to one of these perceive the foreign control? I'd imagine these electrodes would reproduce the brain signals that cause our muscles to move, but not alter our consciousness. So we would be aware that our own bodies were moving and responding to someone else's control. Imagine for example, wanting to stop walking but your body keeps on putting one foot in front of the other. Scary to lose control. There is existing research relevant to this question. It concerns people whose corpus callosum (the cable connecting the brain's right and left hemispheres) has been cut. It's possible to present such a person with something (here, a sign with words written on it) that is only visible to one of their eyes, and thus one hemisphere of their brain. It is also possible for such a person to be not consciously aware of what one of their eyes is seeing. If you present, in the field of view which doesn't have conscious awareness, a sign saying e.g. "please stand up", they will. If you then ask them why they did it, they won't know, but they won't say that; they'll make something up like "I was going to get a Coke". There is no evidence that they're being deceptive. So it's quite possible that you'd perceive your controlled actions as voluntary. (I'm not taking a position as to whether that's more or less horrifying than perceiving the control.)

ck2 13y ago

Right.... teach kids that torturing animals is okay and desensitize them. This should end well. We definitely don't have enough mass-killings in society today.

biff 13y ago
People used to worry kids ripping wings off of houseflies weren't right in the head. Budding aerospace engineers cheated of their true potential because no U.S. company had the ingenuity to market $100 wing scissors?
- ck2 13y ago
  Are you saying some kids are born psychopaths? Or that marketeers are? I've observed both ways, where the kids were far more sane than the parents, and then there are kids that turn out evil despite the best parents.
  - biff 13y ago
    Genetics and environment each play a part, I suppose, but cruelty can be a learned behavior. The price point means this is more likely to be used by people who will take it seriously, but it just struck me as a particularly ghoulish piece of kit to put next to the microscope and chemistry set. I read "A Father's Story" not too long ago, so maybe that doesn't help the cause. On the other hand, most of us had at least a couple dissections under our belt by high school, and it wasn't like those critters willingly offered themselves up towards our erudition, either. A practical education in science did seem to involve doing things we could have just read about in books, even if it caused a few nitric acid stains here and there and dozens of fetal pigs to lay down their lives, so maybe I'm being too quick to judge. Now, are marketeers in general psychopaths? I don't think it's a hard and fast rule...
001sky 13y ago
The Michigan-based company has even received emails saying the the backpack - known as Roboroach - "teaches kids to be psychopaths". Have to say, I think I agree.

chrischen 13y ago

How long does the battery last?

rhizome 13y ago

This is growth hacking, right? Seems like a nice PR prank by the company.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

patrickg_zill 13y ago

Amazing, but weird... I am having flashbacks to the cockroach-spy scenes in the movie "Fifth Element".

skuunk1 13y ago

Intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter. If the intent is education, then I condone this, if it is entertainment then I do not.

artificialidiot 13y ago

How do I know that the company spews bullshit? Because it mentions Alzheimer. This is the modern trigger word for asking for funding without stating a concrete goal.

beambot 13y ago

I was a researcher on an analogous research project involving dragonflies [1]. Let me explain the difference: all of our research had strict ethical guidelines backed by IRB approvals, the procedures were performed by trained biologists, and the outcome is fundamental neurology research that will be published in Science or Nature. Meanwhile, these cockroach experiments are being performed w/o oversight, by "citizen scientists", with no apparent outcome other than novelty and staving off boredom. BIG difference. I do not approve. * Thankfully, my work on the dragonfly project was the biotelemetry radio link rather than working with live animals. [1] http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/06/dragonfly-backpack-neuron/ http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/06/dragonfly-backpack... => No control of the dragonflies; only neural telemetry.

thaumasiotes 13y ago
You know, there's a school of thought that says IRB approvals prevent a lot of valuable research from happening. This isn't the ground I would have chosen to stand on to defend them. But beyond that fairly narrow issue, what you're espousing here is an incredibly benighted view. We want "citizen scientists" to be moved by the spirit of inquiry and run the experiments that take their fancy. That's how progress is made. "Novelty and staving off boredom" are a primary motivation for many professional scientists; I still remember the essay I read pointing out that the true scientific mindset was that of an overeager dog who just has to see what's behind that door... and the next one! and the next! Science-related toys for children have long been felt to promote positive goals, like sparking the interest of a future scientist or just raising awareness of what scientists might do. I see complaints all the time that you can't buy a decent chemistry set anymore. And here you're admitting that exactly this sort of experiment can be published in Nature, but children should keep their hands off? You don't see me crusading to keep Lego Mindstorms in professional hands only. I like it when children share my interests. Major progress has been made by serendipity and by "citizen scientists" acting without oversight. And, for that matter, by professional scientists acting without oversight. Making the tools more accessible can only get things to happen faster. You should be ashamed of yourself.
- DanBC 13y ago

chanux 13y ago

This must be way off topic but did Hitler believe he was doing the right thing? Edit: I once read about the creators of Roboroach defend the idea. I still didn't agree (It's OK for things I disagree with to exist in the world). Their kickstarter is successful so I guess enough people approve the idea. Also I liked how the kicstarter page made Roboroach creator's words look like they are Mashable's. On Roboroach Kickstarter Mashable - "... the RoboRoach is not a toy, but rather a learning tool." On Masahble Gage and Marzullo underline the fact that the RoboRoach is not a toy, but rather a learning tool. The creators are probably truly passionate about their field of work, want it to be just an educational tool and maybe they are right. But I just can't tell this apart from a PR plaster.

deSouza 13y ago

I had never thought I could feel empathy with a cockroach.

rdl 13y ago

This sales campaign has been fairly effective for me; I'll happily pay $99 for this. I boil alive and then eat a close relative of these animals, and other people eat living animals (I just don't like those particular animals). At-home science is at least as defensible.

goldenkey 13y ago
Torture is wrong. Especially prolonged torture in the form of forced servitude. How can you claim any degree of moral backing for this practice when its science lacks merits and it is merely a toy of torture?
- rdl 13y ago
  It's more that it teaches individuals existing science, creating more interest in science and thus potentially future scientists who will push the bounds of human knowledge, vs. this itself advancing the limits of human knowledge. I agree with you about torture, but mitigate that with the lower life form status of cockroaches. I wouldn't support the same thing done to rats, octopus, etc., all things being equal (although I'm ok with less intrusive or more beneficial things done to higher life forms; in the limit, final medical testing on monkeys and humans).
  - DanBC 13y ago
    It's expensive and the science value is low. For $100 you could make most of the stuff on http://scitoys.com/ http://scitoys.com/ While I tend to the more animal rightsy end of the spectrum I tend to agree that putting this on a cockroach isn't too troubling from the point of view of the bug. But does it lead to beetles in vending machines[1] or live turtles in tiny pouches[2]? I don't think we're creating a generation of kids who'll go on to re-create ZippoCat, but it's worth some thought. [1] http://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/aug/11/jonathanwatts http://www.theguardian.com/uk/1999/aug/11/jonathanwatts [2] http://www.geekosystem.com/chinese-turtles-fish-keychains/ http://www.geekosystem.com/chinese-turtles-fish-keychains/ [2] http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/keyrings.asp http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/keyrings.asp

harvey123 13y ago

If I lived in USA, I would take control of these ppl who work for this sick company and force them to do stuff. Where did the roach agree to this? Your so sick. Plz sum 1 from America find this company and kick the shit out of all of them...scum

DougN7 13y ago

Time to risk a hell-ban: I'm genuinely curious how people's views on this being torture and leading to children without empathy, ect coincide with people being against abortion for similar reasons. Does anyone support abortion rights but is against this toy? Or vice versa?

summerdown2 13y ago
I support abortion rights but I'm against this toy. I'd have no problem with a device that kills cockroaches faster. I am, however, against cruelty.
lawtguy 13y ago
I support the right of a woman to have an abortion, and I'm also very uncomfortable with this product. In general, I think it's OK to cause pain or kill non-sentient beings as long as it leads to a useful end. Killing a cow so we can eat the meat is fine, but you're not allowed to torture it as you kill it [1]. An abortion is also OK on the same grounds: a fetus before 3 months of gestation is definitely not sentient, and killing it could prevent a great deal of hardship. To be clear, I think abortion is horrible, but it could be the least bad option available. For this cockroach control toy, it's not clear that it causes the cockroach any pain, but it sure looks like torture. The potentially utility of it looks rather low as well. I can see that it could be useful for learning (and maybe some science as well) but I suspect at lot of people will buy it just for entertainment. That is what makes me very uncomfortable about this device. [1]: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_slaughter

simon155 13y ago

NOTE: As the spokesman has made a public claim the insects are NOT harmed by the product, you are at liberty to take up complaints via trading standards bodies / regulators and sue. I would encourage everyone to do so. We had a company like that over here - huntingdon life sciences (UK) which as awareness of their activities spread, had regular potests at their offices, preventing workers from working. Once scientists addresses started making public appearance, things very quickly escalated.