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One big difference between PUA culture and startup culture is that the former is generally more expressly proud of its misogyny.

enko 13y ago
On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"?
- quinnchr 13y ago
  The real world? http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/ http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/
  - enko 13y ago
    Congratulations on discovering human psychology. I don't have a blog post at hand exemplifying how bosses "neg" potential hires to get them at a lower rate, but I assure you, it is a Thing. "Negging" is a negotiating tactic and you have failed to show how it is linked to misogyny in any way, shape or form.
    - skwirl 13y ago
      You're fedorable. For such an expert on human psychology, you are having an awfully hard time understanding why you are not being well received here. You don't seem to be able to figure out how to get a bunch of nerds like us to like you, which should be easier than women since you are like us, right? And you're doing a great job at digging a deeper hole.
      - enko 13y ago
        Yeah, I'm not trying to make you like me. I was just trying to stick up for a community which I don't think is as malevolent as the GP proposed. FWIW, to be accused of misogyny is really offensive to me personally.
        anu_gupta 13y ago
        Have to say that you're not reacting particularly well to being "negged". is this usual outcome?
        hacker789 13y ago
        > not reacting particularly well What makes you say that? He's not the one throwing names around. What would constitute "reacting well" in your book? Agreeing with you?
        anu_gupta 13y ago
        Agreeing with me about what? All I'm doing is pointing out that being "negged" just seems to be making him quite defensive and angry. I thought that having his self-esteem be reduced should make him more sexually appealing and available - but that doesn't seem to be happening.
        Goladus 13y ago
        Negging a man is supposed to make him angry. To a man, a neg is effectively a taunt. Which demonstrates that you all fail to understand what a neg is and what it's supposed to be used for. A neg is more or less exclusively meant to be used on women who are exceptionally attractive AND who have an enormous ego because of that. It's meant for women who are always surrounded by fawning men who cater to her every whim because she is beautiful. Especially in an environment, such as a nightclub, where come-ons are frequent. And even then, it usually needs to be very subtle, used in context with as light a touch as possible.
        prutschman 13y ago
        enko claimed that "negging" is merely a universal, gender-neutral negotiating tactic. You're merely reinforcing the point that it is in actuality a deliberate tactic to undermine a woman's self esteem--to take her down a peg because she is perceived as seeing herself as superior to a man.
      - hacker789 13y ago
        "Not being well received here"? A handful of feminists are accusing him of hating women for wanting to be more attractive to women. Nothing's new. Just because people aren't standing up to a handful of feminist bullies ("fedorable"?) doesn't mean the community here doesn't like him. It just means that don't want to pick a fight.
        ceol 13y ago
        I had to scroll all the way down here to see someone use the word "feminist" as a baseless insult. You guys need to step up your game.
    - quinnchr 13y ago
      Welp, congratulations! If you fail to see the misogyny in that blog post that means you're another venerable member of the PUA community who is proud of its misogyny.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - wpietri 13y ago
      If somebody harms people's self esteem to get something out of them, that person is an asshole. If that person is a boss, they are an asshole boss. If they are carefully studying how to be an asshole to women, I'm ok calling them misogynist. I accept their rationalization might be different. But it always is. Everybody thinks they wear a white hat.
  - ivanbrussik 13y ago
    i can't believe what i just read
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"? Its called Earth, where using ability to sexually manipulate women as the yardstick to measure your personal development is, for reasons which should be quite obvious, seen as misogyny (or, more precisely, objectification of women.)
patrickg_zill 13y ago
I know I will get downvotes for this... But "here comes the shaming language" ... Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years. EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water. Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
- prutschman 13y ago
  Cosmo is also full of patriarchal heteronormative bullshit, you'll get no argument from me there.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years. See, here, where you gender stereotype "women" (and not a subset of them) as equivalent to "the PUA community", that's a good illustration of the problem right there. > EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. Lots do, but, no, not every single one does. (Leaving aside for the moment whether the things you describe are actually PUA-equivalent.) > It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water. Actually, they do notice it. For some women, its part of the reason they buy the magazines (though, usually -- unlike for self-proclaimed members of the "PUA community" -- not usually a point of pride.) For other women, its a source of entertainment, something to laugh about (either among each other or with male friends.) For other women, its part of the reason they object to many mainstream women's fashion & lifestyle magazines as reinforces of patriarchy and traditional gender roles. But what is certainly not true is that they don't notice it. > Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed. No, only when they proudly label themselves as members of a community whose very name is about using whatever knowledge or skills they have to manipulate women into sex. You can't really be surprised that people react to the labels you choose for yourself.
andromegaly 13y ago
I wonder... Is it impossible for there to be such a thing as pick-up artistry amongst members of the homosexual community? I bet it's just a magical thing that happens in the LGBT community, where courtship is preternaturally effortless. Perhaps, it's not even a learned behavior, to attract sexual partners? Are heterosexual women incapable of manipulative behavior? Is there no such thing? ...but if that's true, wouldn't that damage any purported premise of equality?
Noxchi 13y ago
Why would a community that wants to date women be considered misogynists? mi·sog·y·ny məˈsäjənē noun 1. the hatred of women.
- derrida 13y ago
  You see them as objects to be acquired, and not as individuals/friends. There are many "artists" (ergh) that are quite clearly misogynist.
- prutschman 13y ago
  Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1] misogyny n. hatred of or hostility toward women.[2, emphasis added] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny

enko 13y ago

On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"?

quinnchr 13y ago
The real world? http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/ http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/
- enko 13y ago
  Congratulations on discovering human psychology. I don't have a blog post at hand exemplifying how bosses "neg" potential hires to get them at a lower rate, but I assure you, it is a Thing. "Negging" is a negotiating tactic and you have failed to show how it is linked to misogyny in any way, shape or form.
  - skwirl 13y ago
    You're fedorable. For such an expert on human psychology, you are having an awfully hard time understanding why you are not being well received here. You don't seem to be able to figure out how to get a bunch of nerds like us to like you, which should be easier than women since you are like us, right? And you're doing a great job at digging a deeper hole.
    - enko 13y ago
      Yeah, I'm not trying to make you like me. I was just trying to stick up for a community which I don't think is as malevolent as the GP proposed. FWIW, to be accused of misogyny is really offensive to me personally.
      - anu_gupta 13y ago
        Have to say that you're not reacting particularly well to being "negged". is this usual outcome?
        hacker789 13y ago
        > not reacting particularly well What makes you say that? He's not the one throwing names around. What would constitute "reacting well" in your book? Agreeing with you?
        anu_gupta 13y ago
        Agreeing with me about what? All I'm doing is pointing out that being "negged" just seems to be making him quite defensive and angry. I thought that having his self-esteem be reduced should make him more sexually appealing and available - but that doesn't seem to be happening.
        Goladus 13y ago
        Negging a man is supposed to make him angry. To a man, a neg is effectively a taunt. Which demonstrates that you all fail to understand what a neg is and what it's supposed to be used for. A neg is more or less exclusively meant to be used on women who are exceptionally attractive AND who have an enormous ego because of that. It's meant for women who are always surrounded by fawning men who cater to her every whim because she is beautiful. Especially in an environment, such as a nightclub, where come-ons are frequent. And even then, it usually needs to be very subtle, used in context with as light a touch as possible.
        prutschman 13y ago
        enko claimed that "negging" is merely a universal, gender-neutral negotiating tactic. You're merely reinforcing the point that it is in actuality a deliberate tactic to undermine a woman's self esteem--to take her down a peg because she is perceived as seeing herself as superior to a man.
    - hacker789 13y ago
      "Not being well received here"? A handful of feminists are accusing him of hating women for wanting to be more attractive to women. Nothing's new. Just because people aren't standing up to a handful of feminist bullies ("fedorable"?) doesn't mean the community here doesn't like him. It just means that don't want to pick a fight.
      - ceol 13y ago
        I had to scroll all the way down here to see someone use the word "feminist" as a baseless insult. You guys need to step up your game.
  - quinnchr 13y ago
    Welp, congratulations! If you fail to see the misogyny in that blog post that means you're another venerable member of the PUA community who is proud of its misogyny.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - wpietri 13y ago
    If somebody harms people's self esteem to get something out of them, that person is an asshole. If that person is a boss, they are an asshole boss. If they are carefully studying how to be an asshole to women, I'm ok calling them misogynist. I accept their rationalization might be different. But it always is. Everybody thinks they wear a white hat.
- ivanbrussik 13y ago
  i can't believe what i just read
dragonwriter 13y ago
> On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"? Its called Earth, where using ability to sexually manipulate women as the yardstick to measure your personal development is, for reasons which should be quite obvious, seen as misogyny (or, more precisely, objectification of women.)

patrickg_zill 13y ago

I know I will get downvotes for this... But "here comes the shaming language" ... Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years. EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water. Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.

prutschman 13y ago
Cosmo is also full of patriarchal heteronormative bullshit, you'll get no argument from me there.
dragonwriter 13y ago
> Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years. See, here, where you gender stereotype "women" (and not a subset of them) as equivalent to "the PUA community", that's a good illustration of the problem right there. > EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. Lots do, but, no, not every single one does. (Leaving aside for the moment whether the things you describe are actually PUA-equivalent.) > It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water. Actually, they do notice it. For some women, its part of the reason they buy the magazines (though, usually -- unlike for self-proclaimed members of the "PUA community" -- not usually a point of pride.) For other women, its a source of entertainment, something to laugh about (either among each other or with male friends.) For other women, its part of the reason they object to many mainstream women's fashion & lifestyle magazines as reinforces of patriarchy and traditional gender roles. But what is certainly not true is that they don't notice it. > Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed. No, only when they proudly label themselves as members of a community whose very name is about using whatever knowledge or skills they have to manipulate women into sex. You can't really be surprised that people react to the labels you choose for yourself.

andromegaly 13y ago

I wonder... Is it impossible for there to be such a thing as pick-up artistry amongst members of the homosexual community? I bet it's just a magical thing that happens in the LGBT community, where courtship is preternaturally effortless. Perhaps, it's not even a learned behavior, to attract sexual partners? Are heterosexual women incapable of manipulative behavior? Is there no such thing? ...but if that's true, wouldn't that damage any purported premise of equality?

Noxchi 13y ago

Why would a community that wants to date women be considered misogynists? mi·sog·y·ny məˈsäjənē noun 1. the hatred of women.

derrida 13y ago
You see them as objects to be acquired, and not as individuals/friends. There are many "artists" (ergh) that are quite clearly misogynist.
prutschman 13y ago
Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1] misogyny n. hatred of or hostility toward women.[2, emphasis added] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny