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I am annoyed with this comment. You do not seem to realise that there are many parallels between the "PUA" community and the startup community. Both are about p

by enko 13y ago

I am annoyed with this comment. You do not seem to realise that there are many parallels between the "PUA" community and the startup community. Both are about people striving to meet their goals. You should read "The Game", by Neil Strauss. He documents the process of becoming a pickup artist, the people he met, the stages he went through. And as you read it, you will realise something - the only surefire way to becoming a successful PUA is to improve yourself, to become the best version of yourself, and at the end of it all, that's what these guys were trying to do. Yeah, there are assholes. There's always assholes. But at the end of the day, this so-called "PUA" culture is about turning yourself into the best version of yourself you can be. And isn't that what all us startup types are trying to do? Rising to a challenge? Stepping into those shoes? Pushing ourselves beyond what we thought possible? Closing the deal? There are more parallels than you think. Read that book. And don't be so eager to judge people. They're more like you than you realise.

prutschman 13y ago
One big difference between PUA culture and startup culture is that the former is generally more expressly proud of its misogyny.
- enko 13y ago
  On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"?
  - quinnchr 13y ago
    The real world? http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/ http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/
    - enko 13y ago
      Congratulations on discovering human psychology. I don't have a blog post at hand exemplifying how bosses "neg" potential hires to get them at a lower rate, but I assure you, it is a Thing. "Negging" is a negotiating tactic and you have failed to show how it is linked to misogyny in any way, shape or form.
      - skwirl 13y ago
        You're fedorable. For such an expert on human psychology, you are having an awfully hard time understanding why you are not being well received here. You don't seem to be able to figure out how to get a bunch of nerds like us to like you, which should be easier than women since you are like us, right? And you're doing a great job at digging a deeper hole.
        enko 13y ago
        Yeah, I'm not trying to make you like me. I was just trying to stick up for a community which I don't think is as malevolent as the GP proposed. FWIW, to be accused of misogyny is really offensive to me personally.
        anu_gupta 13y ago
        Have to say that you're not reacting particularly well to being "negged". is this usual outcome?
        hacker789 13y ago
        > not reacting particularly well What makes you say that? He's not the one throwing names around. What would constitute "reacting well" in your book? Agreeing with you?
        anu_gupta 13y ago
        Agreeing with me about what? All I'm doing is pointing out that being "negged" just seems to be making him quite defensive and angry. I thought that having his self-esteem be reduced should make him more sexually appealing and available - but that doesn't seem to be happening.
    - ivanbrussik 13y ago
      i can't believe what i just read
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"? Its called Earth, where using ability to sexually manipulate women as the yardstick to measure your personal development is, for reasons which should be quite obvious, seen as misogyny (or, more precisely, objectification of women.)
- patrickg_zill 13y ago
  I know I will get downvotes for this... But "here comes the shaming language" ... Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years. EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water. Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
  - prutschman 13y ago
    Cosmo is also full of patriarchal heteronormative bullshit, you'll get no argument from me there.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years. See, here, where you gender stereotype "women" (and not a subset of them) as equivalent to "the PUA community", that's a good illustration of the problem right there. > EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. Lots do, but, no, not every single one does. (Leaving aside for the moment whether the things you describe are actually PUA-equivalent.) > It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water. Actually, they do notice it. For some women, its part of the reason they buy the magazines (though, usually -- unlike for self-proclaimed members of the "PUA community" -- not usually a point of pride.) For other women, its a source of entertainment, something to laugh about (either among each other or with male friends.) For other women, its part of the reason they object to many mainstream women's fashion & lifestyle magazines as reinforces of patriarchy and traditional gender roles. But what is certainly not true is that they don't notice it. > Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed. No, only when they proudly label themselves as members of a community whose very name is about using whatever knowledge or skills they have to manipulate women into sex. You can't really be surprised that people react to the labels you choose for yourself.
- andromegaly 13y ago
  I wonder... Is it impossible for there to be such a thing as pick-up artistry amongst members of the homosexual community? I bet it's just a magical thing that happens in the LGBT community, where courtship is preternaturally effortless. Perhaps, it's not even a learned behavior, to attract sexual partners? Are heterosexual women incapable of manipulative behavior? Is there no such thing? ...but if that's true, wouldn't that damage any purported premise of equality?
- Noxchi 13y ago
  Why would a community that wants to date women be considered misogynists? mi·sog·y·ny məˈsäjənē noun 1. the hatred of women.
  - derrida 13y ago
    You see them as objects to be acquired, and not as individuals/friends. There are many "artists" (ergh) that are quite clearly misogynist.
  - prutschman 13y ago
    Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1] misogyny n. hatred of or hostility toward women.[2, emphasis added] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny
coldtea 13y ago
>I am annoyed with this comment. You do not seem to realise that there are many parallels between the "PUA" community and the startup community. Both are about people striving to meet their goals That also happens to describe the mob and the serial killers community.
maxmcd 13y ago
Neil Strauss's "The Game" is what cemented my nagative views about PUA's
- enko 13y ago
  Want to elaborate on this? For me that book shone a really bright light on a community, and its two types of citizens - the "wantrepreneurs" who would try to trick their way to success, and the really serious guys who changed their whole lives to succeed. I saw obvious parallels between them and the startup community. And, yes, I suppose, serial killers and any other community who wants to succeed. Curious as to what you found was negative and why.
  - debaserab2 13y ago
    There's just not a lot redeeming about most "pick-up artist" type characters. They practice their craft by relying on automatic human behavior using borrowed stories, magic tricks, or flat-out lies to establish trust. In my opinion, diluting a relationship down to scientific behaviors and applying that to your relationships is dehumanizing and disingenuous. I don't want to associate with people like that.
debaserab2 13y ago
The climax of the book was when Neil realized that indoctrinating yourself into the PUA community creates strange, robot like humans incapable of real connections and that lasting relationships are based on having real substance behind the facade and tricks of the PUA community. It's strange how half the people who read this book ended up infatuated with the over-glamorized lifestyle of the "pickup artist" and missed the tale of the value of being yourself.
- enko 13y ago
  I think we interpreted the book in different ways. Yes, he realised that the culture of trying to trick women into bed via tricks or routines was wrong, and the people who went down that path had flawed, weak personalities. It's interesting that on HN we tend to laud people who try to "hack the system" - but it's a shortcut, it's not real, and even if you succeed you can't handle it when you get there. He realised that the real way to "win" women was to be yourself, the very best version of yourself you could manage. That is the central truth to which I was trying to refer. If you want to get the girls, be cool and confident and popular and successful. If that doesn't drive at least 50% of the startup community then I don't know what does. I think we actually agree, except you have picked up a negative bias somewhere that I don't have. I liked that book very much. I have never been, nor want to be, a "PUA" but by god do I understand the sentiment.

by enko 13y ago

prutschman 13y ago

One big difference between PUA culture and startup culture is that the former is generally more expressly proud of its misogyny.

enko 13y ago
On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"?
- quinnchr 13y ago
  The real world? http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/ http://www.seductionscience.com/2010/negging-women/
  - enko 13y ago
    Congratulations on discovering human psychology. I don't have a blog post at hand exemplifying how bosses "neg" potential hires to get them at a lower rate, but I assure you, it is a Thing. "Negging" is a negotiating tactic and you have failed to show how it is linked to misogyny in any way, shape or form.
    - skwirl 13y ago
      You're fedorable. For such an expert on human psychology, you are having an awfully hard time understanding why you are not being well received here. You don't seem to be able to figure out how to get a bunch of nerds like us to like you, which should be easier than women since you are like us, right? And you're doing a great job at digging a deeper hole.
      - enko 13y ago
        Yeah, I'm not trying to make you like me. I was just trying to stick up for a community which I don't think is as malevolent as the GP proposed. FWIW, to be accused of misogyny is really offensive to me personally.
        anu_gupta 13y ago
        Have to say that you're not reacting particularly well to being "negged". is this usual outcome?
        hacker789 13y ago
        > not reacting particularly well What makes you say that? He's not the one throwing names around. What would constitute "reacting well" in your book? Agreeing with you?
        anu_gupta 13y ago
        Agreeing with me about what? All I'm doing is pointing out that being "negged" just seems to be making him quite defensive and angry. I thought that having his self-esteem be reduced should make him more sexually appealing and available - but that doesn't seem to be happening.
  - ivanbrussik 13y ago
    i can't believe what i just read
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > On what bizarro world do you live where guys striving and taking efforts to improve themselves so that can appeal more to women counts as "misogyny"? Its called Earth, where using ability to sexually manipulate women as the yardstick to measure your personal development is, for reasons which should be quite obvious, seen as misogyny (or, more precisely, objectification of women.)
patrickg_zill 13y ago
I know I will get downvotes for this... But "here comes the shaming language" ... Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years. EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water. Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed.
- prutschman 13y ago
  Cosmo is also full of patriarchal heteronormative bullshit, you'll get no argument from me there.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > Let me know when you are as equally hard on women for learning all the PUA tip-equivalents (for their gender) from age 5 onwards, through to the Vogue Teen and then the Cosmo years. See, here, where you gender stereotype "women" (and not a subset of them) as equivalent to "the PUA community", that's a good illustration of the problem right there. > EVERY SINGLE women's magazine you see on the shelves at the supermarket, has the equivalent of "PUA tips and tricks" in every issue. Such as "how to make him ..." or "What he likes in bed" or whatever. Lots do, but, no, not every single one does. (Leaving aside for the moment whether the things you describe are actually PUA-equivalent.) > It is so prevalent, women aren't even aware of it, like a fish doesn't notice the water. Actually, they do notice it. For some women, its part of the reason they buy the magazines (though, usually -- unlike for self-proclaimed members of the "PUA community" -- not usually a point of pride.) For other women, its a source of entertainment, something to laugh about (either among each other or with male friends.) For other women, its part of the reason they object to many mainstream women's fashion & lifestyle magazines as reinforces of patriarchy and traditional gender roles. But what is certainly not true is that they don't notice it. > Let a guy start learning some evo-psych, learn how to dress better, work on his conversation skills, and quit being a supplicative schlub ... and the Holy Hand Grenade of Guilt and Shaming gets tossed. No, only when they proudly label themselves as members of a community whose very name is about using whatever knowledge or skills they have to manipulate women into sex. You can't really be surprised that people react to the labels you choose for yourself.
andromegaly 13y ago
I wonder... Is it impossible for there to be such a thing as pick-up artistry amongst members of the homosexual community? I bet it's just a magical thing that happens in the LGBT community, where courtship is preternaturally effortless. Perhaps, it's not even a learned behavior, to attract sexual partners? Are heterosexual women incapable of manipulative behavior? Is there no such thing? ...but if that's true, wouldn't that damage any purported premise of equality?
Noxchi 13y ago
Why would a community that wants to date women be considered misogynists? mi·sog·y·ny məˈsäjənē noun 1. the hatred of women.
- derrida 13y ago
  You see them as objects to be acquired, and not as individuals/friends. There are many "artists" (ergh) that are quite clearly misogynist.
- prutschman 13y ago
  Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1] misogyny n. hatred of or hostility toward women.[2, emphasis added] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny [2] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misogyny

coldtea 13y ago

>I am annoyed with this comment. You do not seem to realise that there are many parallels between the "PUA" community and the startup community. Both are about people striving to meet their goals That also happens to describe the mob and the serial killers community.

maxmcd 13y ago

Neil Strauss's "The Game" is what cemented my nagative views about PUA's

enko 13y ago
Want to elaborate on this? For me that book shone a really bright light on a community, and its two types of citizens - the "wantrepreneurs" who would try to trick their way to success, and the really serious guys who changed their whole lives to succeed. I saw obvious parallels between them and the startup community. And, yes, I suppose, serial killers and any other community who wants to succeed. Curious as to what you found was negative and why.
- debaserab2 13y ago
  There's just not a lot redeeming about most "pick-up artist" type characters. They practice their craft by relying on automatic human behavior using borrowed stories, magic tricks, or flat-out lies to establish trust. In my opinion, diluting a relationship down to scientific behaviors and applying that to your relationships is dehumanizing and disingenuous. I don't want to associate with people like that.

debaserab2 13y ago

The climax of the book was when Neil realized that indoctrinating yourself into the PUA community creates strange, robot like humans incapable of real connections and that lasting relationships are based on having real substance behind the facade and tricks of the PUA community. It's strange how half the people who read this book ended up infatuated with the over-glamorized lifestyle of the "pickup artist" and missed the tale of the value of being yourself.

enko 13y ago
I think we interpreted the book in different ways. Yes, he realised that the culture of trying to trick women into bed via tricks or routines was wrong, and the people who went down that path had flawed, weak personalities. It's interesting that on HN we tend to laud people who try to "hack the system" - but it's a shortcut, it's not real, and even if you succeed you can't handle it when you get there. He realised that the real way to "win" women was to be yourself, the very best version of yourself you could manage. That is the central truth to which I was trying to refer. If you want to get the girls, be cool and confident and popular and successful. If that doesn't drive at least 50% of the startup community then I don't know what does. I think we actually agree, except you have picked up a negative bias somewhere that I don't have. I liked that book very much. I have never been, nor want to be, a "PUA" but by god do I understand the sentiment.