5 ms·

(1) I have personally met Tynan, and he's not an asshole. In fact, he's quite sweet in person. Even if you read his blog, there's nothing assholish about it. He

(1) I have personally met Tynan, and he's not an asshole. In fact, he's quite sweet in person. Even if you read his blog, there's nothing assholish about it. He doesn't lie. He does his own thing. (2) People who generalize about an entire class of people being "assholes" ... maybe should look in the mirror.

wpietri 13y ago
Generalizing about groups can be problematic. However, not so when you're generalizing based on what the group has in common. The whole PUA thing is about manipulating vulnerable people so you can have sex with them. It's definitionally assholish. Assuming that a given PUA is an asshole is like assuming an Englishman speaks English. It's not a perfect correlation, but it's certainly the way to bet.
- parasubvert 13y ago
  Or, perhaps the whole PUA thing is about offering a list of techniques of social interaction that some people intuitively aren't born with, and need actual coaching. Neil Strauss documents this pretty well in his "The Game" books about how he fell into pickup culture. Such techniques of course can be abused by assholes against the vulnerable as well.
  - ceol 13y ago
    Nobody's buying it, man. PUA techniques are for the socially awkward the same way blown glass pipes are for tobacco smokers. What people claim and what the vast majority use it for are two different things. All you have to do is look at the OP's profile to find this picture.[0] That sure doesn't look like some poor bloke who has trouble talking to people. [0]: (slightly NSFW) http://www.pualingo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/herbal-tynan-pua.jpg http://www.pualingo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/herbal-ty...
    - wpietri 13y ago
      Yeah. A fine example is this article about how a well-known pick-up artist upset that a country with good social welfare programs makes it harder for him to manipulate women into letting him fuck them: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/cockblocked-by-redistribution http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/cockblocked-by-redist... Also, excellent analogy.
      - patrickg_zill 13y ago
        http://www.rooshv.com/katie-j-m-baker-purposefully-distorted-my-work-to-advance-her-socialist-agenda http://www.rooshv.com/katie-j-m-baker-purposefully-distorted... She didn't accurately quote from his book and may have mis-represented key quotes that she pulls from it.
        ceol 13y ago
        > But the book never stated that the pussy flow was blocked in Denmark, just that there was low quality, masculine pussy. He sure isn't helping his case. All of the random claims of "socialism" and "left-leaning" don't help, either. In fact, none of his clarifications actually prove she misquoted him, and each time he quoted his book in that post, it fit exactly with the original review. From his language (referring to women as "the pussy" instead of as, you know, actual people) to his extreme generalizations of women and cultures, it's apparent the original review was spot-on for both Roosh's book and PUA culture in general.
    - Goladus 13y ago
      What people claim and what the vast majority use it for are two different things. True, but your implication has it backwards. Tynan is not part of the vast majority. He is an outlier, one degree of separation from Mystery(Erik von Markovik) and Neil Strauss. The vast majority of people are unable or unwilling to be so ruthlessly selfish and sacrifice healthy, stable relationships on the altar of hedonistic sex-- even if they think that's all they want (and most will admit otherwise). The dilemma is that guys who write about attraction and having sex with women tend to benefit a great deal by having a lot of experience with women. That's not very compatible with traditional monogamous relationships, so it will always be easy to attack them from this angle however irrelevant that angle may be.
- mindcrime 13y ago
  The whole PUA thing is about manipulating vulnerable people so you can have sex with them. No it isn't.
  - hacker789 13y ago
    You're wrong. Women aren't adults who can be held responsible for their own actions and decisions; they're vulnerable children who need to be protected at every turn. If you (as a man) visit an Apple Store just to look around, and you walk out with a brand new laptop, you're a customer. You made a decision. Yes, Apple works very hard to maximize conversions, but you're an adult, and it's silly to shame and vilify Apple for "manipulating" a "vulnerable" man into buying their products. However, if you (as a woman) choose to have sex with a man who reads tips about how to increase his chances of having sex, you're a vulnerable victim of manipulation. That mean, bad predator who took advantage of you needs to be shamed! Western media is overflowing with tips for women to get what they want from men. And that's okay. :) But if you're a man, don't you dare read tips about how to get what you want from women. That would be misogynist. You don't hate women, do you, mindcrime?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        > Many are quick to label casual sex as misogynistic, but this implies that women are inferior to men and can't be trusted to make their own decisions and must be protected from themselves. A community dedicated to developing, sharing, and applying methods to manipulate women into sex being considered misogynistic is not the same as casual sex being considered misogynistic.
    - wpietri 13y ago
      We are all adults responsible for our decisions. We also are all adults, responsible for how we treat others, and how it shapes their decisions. Responsibility is not zero sum. The common name for the system in which men and women manipulate one another is called "patriarchy". (When you look beyond men and women, it's called "kyriarchy".) It's bullshit on both sides. There are two reason it's seen as worse for men, both historical. One is the men have had way more power and are still substantially advantaged. The more power you have, the more responsible you are for a fucked-up situation. The other is that people with less power are forced to be manipulative to survive. E.g., 100-200 years ago, when professional women were very rare, women focused a lot marrying well, because they didn't have a lot of other options. So there's a bunch of cultural hangover from that.
- nikatwork 13y ago
  I know some awkward nerdy guys who took up DJing partly so that people in clubs open to casual sex would find them interesting and choose them over others. Does this make them assholes? PUA strikes me as a "sales and marketing" technique to advertise yourself as an interesting casual sex partner. There are some asshats who manipulate, but then there are also high-pressure salespeople who manipulate; that doesn't make all sales and marketing unethical.
  - trentmb 13y ago
    > I know some awkward nerdy guys who took up DJing partly so that people in clubs open to casual sex would find them interesting and choose them over others. Does this make them assholes? I dunno if I'd call them assholes, but I do feel sorry for them.
    - nikatwork 13y ago
      Why do you feel sorry for them?
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
  - virtuz 13y ago
    It's less "advertising for yourself" when you make up bullshit stories and copy "routines" that someone else made to make girls interested in you. It's not cool. Yes, learn social interaction. Yes, learn how the other sex work. Yes, learn how they think. But PUA isn't this: it's gaming women for sex.
trentmb 13y ago
> (2) People who generalize about an entire class of people being "assholes" ... maybe should look in the mirror. Why would you suggest that an entire class of people do something?

wpietri 13y ago

Generalizing about groups can be problematic. However, not so when you're generalizing based on what the group has in common. The whole PUA thing is about manipulating vulnerable people so you can have sex with them. It's definitionally assholish. Assuming that a given PUA is an asshole is like assuming an Englishman speaks English. It's not a perfect correlation, but it's certainly the way to bet.

parasubvert 13y ago
Or, perhaps the whole PUA thing is about offering a list of techniques of social interaction that some people intuitively aren't born with, and need actual coaching. Neil Strauss documents this pretty well in his "The Game" books about how he fell into pickup culture. Such techniques of course can be abused by assholes against the vulnerable as well.
- ceol 13y ago
  Nobody's buying it, man. PUA techniques are for the socially awkward the same way blown glass pipes are for tobacco smokers. What people claim and what the vast majority use it for are two different things. All you have to do is look at the OP's profile to find this picture.[0] That sure doesn't look like some poor bloke who has trouble talking to people. [0]: (slightly NSFW) http://www.pualingo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/herbal-tynan-pua.jpg http://www.pualingo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/herbal-ty...
  - wpietri 13y ago
    Yeah. A fine example is this article about how a well-known pick-up artist upset that a country with good social welfare programs makes it harder for him to manipulate women into letting him fuck them: http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/cockblocked-by-redistribution http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/cockblocked-by-redist... Also, excellent analogy.
    - patrickg_zill 13y ago
      http://www.rooshv.com/katie-j-m-baker-purposefully-distorted-my-work-to-advance-her-socialist-agenda http://www.rooshv.com/katie-j-m-baker-purposefully-distorted... She didn't accurately quote from his book and may have mis-represented key quotes that she pulls from it.
      - ceol 13y ago
        > But the book never stated that the pussy flow was blocked in Denmark, just that there was low quality, masculine pussy. He sure isn't helping his case. All of the random claims of "socialism" and "left-leaning" don't help, either. In fact, none of his clarifications actually prove she misquoted him, and each time he quoted his book in that post, it fit exactly with the original review. From his language (referring to women as "the pussy" instead of as, you know, actual people) to his extreme generalizations of women and cultures, it's apparent the original review was spot-on for both Roosh's book and PUA culture in general.
  - Goladus 13y ago
    What people claim and what the vast majority use it for are two different things. True, but your implication has it backwards. Tynan is not part of the vast majority. He is an outlier, one degree of separation from Mystery(Erik von Markovik) and Neil Strauss. The vast majority of people are unable or unwilling to be so ruthlessly selfish and sacrifice healthy, stable relationships on the altar of hedonistic sex-- even if they think that's all they want (and most will admit otherwise). The dilemma is that guys who write about attraction and having sex with women tend to benefit a great deal by having a lot of experience with women. That's not very compatible with traditional monogamous relationships, so it will always be easy to attack them from this angle however irrelevant that angle may be.
mindcrime 13y ago
The whole PUA thing is about manipulating vulnerable people so you can have sex with them. No it isn't.
- hacker789 13y ago
  You're wrong. Women aren't adults who can be held responsible for their own actions and decisions; they're vulnerable children who need to be protected at every turn. If you (as a man) visit an Apple Store just to look around, and you walk out with a brand new laptop, you're a customer. You made a decision. Yes, Apple works very hard to maximize conversions, but you're an adult, and it's silly to shame and vilify Apple for "manipulating" a "vulnerable" man into buying their products. However, if you (as a woman) choose to have sex with a man who reads tips about how to increase his chances of having sex, you're a vulnerable victim of manipulation. That mean, bad predator who took advantage of you needs to be shamed! Western media is overflowing with tips for women to get what they want from men. And that's okay. :) But if you're a man, don't you dare read tips about how to get what you want from women. That would be misogynist. You don't hate women, do you, mindcrime?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - dragonwriter 13y ago
      > Many are quick to label casual sex as misogynistic, but this implies that women are inferior to men and can't be trusted to make their own decisions and must be protected from themselves. A community dedicated to developing, sharing, and applying methods to manipulate women into sex being considered misogynistic is not the same as casual sex being considered misogynistic.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    We are all adults responsible for our decisions. We also are all adults, responsible for how we treat others, and how it shapes their decisions. Responsibility is not zero sum. The common name for the system in which men and women manipulate one another is called "patriarchy". (When you look beyond men and women, it's called "kyriarchy".) It's bullshit on both sides. There are two reason it's seen as worse for men, both historical. One is the men have had way more power and are still substantially advantaged. The more power you have, the more responsible you are for a fucked-up situation. The other is that people with less power are forced to be manipulative to survive. E.g., 100-200 years ago, when professional women were very rare, women focused a lot marrying well, because they didn't have a lot of other options. So there's a bunch of cultural hangover from that.
nikatwork 13y ago
I know some awkward nerdy guys who took up DJing partly so that people in clubs open to casual sex would find them interesting and choose them over others. Does this make them assholes? PUA strikes me as a "sales and marketing" technique to advertise yourself as an interesting casual sex partner. There are some asshats who manipulate, but then there are also high-pressure salespeople who manipulate; that doesn't make all sales and marketing unethical.
- trentmb 13y ago
  > I know some awkward nerdy guys who took up DJing partly so that people in clubs open to casual sex would find them interesting and choose them over others. Does this make them assholes? I dunno if I'd call them assholes, but I do feel sorry for them.
  - nikatwork 13y ago
    Why do you feel sorry for them?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- virtuz 13y ago
  It's less "advertising for yourself" when you make up bullshit stories and copy "routines" that someone else made to make girls interested in you. It's not cool. Yes, learn social interaction. Yes, learn how the other sex work. Yes, learn how they think. But PUA isn't this: it's gaming women for sex.

trentmb 13y ago

> (2) People who generalize about an entire class of people being "assholes" ... maybe should look in the mirror. Why would you suggest that an entire class of people do something?