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Although I haven't read the novel, it would be most meta irony if the article's author was missing the book's subtle societal criticism.

by JDulin 13y ago

jfoutz 13y ago
The novel is really short. It's good, I enjoy Heinlein's writing anyway. He lays out an interesting model for democracy, but it depends critically on permanent war. It has been a long time since i read the book, but i think the author gives it a fair shake. Nothing really screams unfair representation to me.
- jholman 13y ago
  > He lays out an interesting model for democracy, but it depends critically on permanent war. That's not true in the fiction, and I can't understand how you would claim that it would "really work that way" or any other claim. In the book, this model of government has existed for a long time, and there has been no war for a long time. So, Heinlein claims that it works without war. But, you know, maybe he's full of shit. (that's devil's advocacy; I'm generally a big fan of RAH.) But on top of that, why would it depend on war? You're born without a franchise, like in modern democracy. But in modern democracy, you get your franchise simply by waiting 19 years (or some other number). In the book, you get your franchise by agreeing to do Federal Service. You apply, you choose a preferred form of service, you do aptitude testing, and you give up control over your own life for N years. When each term is up, you can either re-enlist, or retire. When you retire, you gain full citizenship! There's no requirement that Federal Service be military (Heinlein has claimed in other writing that he intended for "95%" of service to be non-military, but others have noted that this is less-than-clear in the book-as-written). But even if it was all military... Switzerland has a military, with mandatory civil service, but no war.
  - jfoutz 13y ago
    That's a pretty interesting point. I don't remember the book well enough to recall astronauts or firefighters getting the vote. I must have projected some later thought on my reading. In that light, it seems a lot more like the Fifth American Republic (i think that's what they were called) in the Diamond Age. People would be required to show up at a certain place and time and perform some activity. For example, walk in a room, pour poison into a cup, leave the room. Five minutes later, walk back in the room, drink the liquid in the cup. Someone else has the job of emptying the poison and replacing it with water. They never get to see each other, but they build immense trust in their fellow citizens. In any case, thanks, I thought mechanized infantry veterans who had actually seen combat were the only voters in the Starship Troopers system.
kstenerud 13y ago
The novel was far more explicit in its commentary. In fact, most of the novel is the protagonist wondering why they're going from planet to planet, destroying other races as they go. The movie, on the other hand, conceals the irony well enough that it bleeds over into the real world.

Although I haven't read the novel, it would be most meta irony if the article's author was missing the book's subtle societal criticism.

by JDulin 13y ago

Although I haven't read the novel, it would be most meta irony if the article's author was missing the book's subtle societal criticism.

jfoutz 13y ago

The novel is really short. It's good, I enjoy Heinlein's writing anyway. He lays out an interesting model for democracy, but it depends critically on permanent war. It has been a long time since i read the book, but i think the author gives it a fair shake. Nothing really screams unfair representation to me.

jholman 13y ago
> He lays out an interesting model for democracy, but it depends critically on permanent war. That's not true in the fiction, and I can't understand how you would claim that it would "really work that way" or any other claim. In the book, this model of government has existed for a long time, and there has been no war for a long time. So, Heinlein claims that it works without war. But, you know, maybe he's full of shit. (that's devil's advocacy; I'm generally a big fan of RAH.) But on top of that, why would it depend on war? You're born without a franchise, like in modern democracy. But in modern democracy, you get your franchise simply by waiting 19 years (or some other number). In the book, you get your franchise by agreeing to do Federal Service. You apply, you choose a preferred form of service, you do aptitude testing, and you give up control over your own life for N years. When each term is up, you can either re-enlist, or retire. When you retire, you gain full citizenship! There's no requirement that Federal Service be military (Heinlein has claimed in other writing that he intended for "95%" of service to be non-military, but others have noted that this is less-than-clear in the book-as-written). But even if it was all military... Switzerland has a military, with mandatory civil service, but no war.
- jfoutz 13y ago
  That's a pretty interesting point. I don't remember the book well enough to recall astronauts or firefighters getting the vote. I must have projected some later thought on my reading. In that light, it seems a lot more like the Fifth American Republic (i think that's what they were called) in the Diamond Age. People would be required to show up at a certain place and time and perform some activity. For example, walk in a room, pour poison into a cup, leave the room. Five minutes later, walk back in the room, drink the liquid in the cup. Someone else has the job of emptying the poison and replacing it with water. They never get to see each other, but they build immense trust in their fellow citizens. In any case, thanks, I thought mechanized infantry veterans who had actually seen combat were the only voters in the Starship Troopers system.

kstenerud 13y ago

The novel was far more explicit in its commentary. In fact, most of the novel is the protagonist wondering why they're going from planet to planet, destroying other races as they go. The movie, on the other hand, conceals the irony well enough that it bleeds over into the real world.