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To me this is less about 'beer and overtime' and more about conformity to pre-existing culture. It doesn't matter if it's beer or if it's Star Trek or if it's

To me this is less about 'beer and overtime' and more about conformity to pre-existing culture. It doesn't matter if it's beer or if it's Star Trek or if it's an religious-like attitude to Cucumber Testing or even if it's a tech company or not, the fact is that some potential asshole who's on a slightly higher salary than you can decide to fuck with your livelihood if you don't tow some intangible line that matters to them. I see it as a byproduct of capitalism, bosses will be bosses, and I've seen people trashed with 'fairness' as often as I have seen them trashed with non-conformity to whatever the ones in charge (or even the ones in the middle) care about. As long as you have a list of conditions attached to your paycheck, this isn't going to change. It sucks, but it is how it is. You either have to play the game or find some place to work where the game is tolerable to you and your values. It doesn't matter how you cast it, but there's always a game to be played, some will seem more virtuous than others, and that will change from person to person.

rmc 13y ago
No-where has "full capitalism". There are some conditions that you cannot attach to a paycheck.
lsc 13y ago
Yeah, first? I agree that "cultural fit" is bullshit; It's the result of people placing the comfort of working with people "like them" over actually getting things done. however... >I see it as a byproduct of capitalism, bosses will be bosses, and I've seen people trashed with 'fairness' as often as I have seen them trashed with non-conformity to whatever the ones in charge (or even the ones in the middle) care about. I don't see how you relate it to capitalism. This is about valuing 'culture' over money; you are going to see it even more in a co-op or commune. Now, you could say in capitalism, this "cultural fit" is more top-down, but I don't think it's any less ugly or destructive because it's coming from your peers. I mean, that's what some people like; some people only want to deal with people who are like them. But it's not a profit-maximizing move.
- fragsworth 13y ago
  "Cultural fit" isn't bullshit, it's just a euphemism for how reasonable someone's personality is. It's easier to say "I don't think they'll fit our culture" instead of saying "their personality sucks"
  - marcus_holmes 13y ago
    Agree with this completely. Cultural fit is (imo) the most important hiring criteria (way way more important than experience with the language). Employees are going to be part of your team for at least two years. If your team can't stand them then that's going to be painful. However, "Cultural Fit" used as an excuse to prevent team diversity is bullshit. Every study done on it has proven that diversity increases team productivity. If a team is mostly white middle-class guys and not hiring girls because of cultural fit, then yeah, that's bullshit.
    - quanticle 13y ago
      But how do you tell? It's not the 1950s any more. Prejudice doesn't manifest itself openly, with people saying, "Oh yeah, there's no way that a darkie would be able to understand this work," or, "Yeah, we can't hire her because she'll get married and pregnant." These days, prejudice manifests itself far more subtly. It's a sense of discomfort that people get when they're seated across the table from someone who's different from them. It's questions that are more difficult, or answers that are more harshly judged. It's a matter of choosing which comments to focus on and which ones to let slide. I think that instead of looking for positive "culture fit" (which just seems to encourage every interviewer to judge the candidate by whatever subconscious prejudices they have) we need to enforce "no assholes." In other words, we should flip the burden of proof. Instead of requiring the candidate to demonstrate that they are a culture fit, we need to have the interviewer demonstrate that the culture fit isn't there. In the debrief, when one of the interviewers says that the candidate was not a culture fit, I would ask them to back up that statement with specific statements or behaviors that the candidate exhibited in the interview. I think that would do a lot to counter our unconscious predilection to look favorably on people just like us and harshly on people who aren't
new299 13y ago
> As long as you have a list of conditions attached to your paycheck, this isn't going to change. It sucks, but it is how it is. You either have to play the game or find some place to work where the game is tolerable to you and your values. It doesn't matter how you cast it, but there's always a game to be played, some will seem more virtuous than others, and that will change from person to person. A reasonable workplace would be able to accommodate people with different personalities and viewpoints as long as they treat each other with respect and consideration. Such workplaces are however quite rare.

rmc 13y ago

No-where has "full capitalism". There are some conditions that you cannot attach to a paycheck.

lsc 13y ago

Yeah, first? I agree that "cultural fit" is bullshit; It's the result of people placing the comfort of working with people "like them" over actually getting things done. however... >I see it as a byproduct of capitalism, bosses will be bosses, and I've seen people trashed with 'fairness' as often as I have seen them trashed with non-conformity to whatever the ones in charge (or even the ones in the middle) care about. I don't see how you relate it to capitalism. This is about valuing 'culture' over money; you are going to see it even more in a co-op or commune. Now, you could say in capitalism, this "cultural fit" is more top-down, but I don't think it's any less ugly or destructive because it's coming from your peers. I mean, that's what some people like; some people only want to deal with people who are like them. But it's not a profit-maximizing move.

fragsworth 13y ago
"Cultural fit" isn't bullshit, it's just a euphemism for how reasonable someone's personality is. It's easier to say "I don't think they'll fit our culture" instead of saying "their personality sucks"
- marcus_holmes 13y ago
  Agree with this completely. Cultural fit is (imo) the most important hiring criteria (way way more important than experience with the language). Employees are going to be part of your team for at least two years. If your team can't stand them then that's going to be painful. However, "Cultural Fit" used as an excuse to prevent team diversity is bullshit. Every study done on it has proven that diversity increases team productivity. If a team is mostly white middle-class guys and not hiring girls because of cultural fit, then yeah, that's bullshit.
  - quanticle 13y ago
    But how do you tell? It's not the 1950s any more. Prejudice doesn't manifest itself openly, with people saying, "Oh yeah, there's no way that a darkie would be able to understand this work," or, "Yeah, we can't hire her because she'll get married and pregnant." These days, prejudice manifests itself far more subtly. It's a sense of discomfort that people get when they're seated across the table from someone who's different from them. It's questions that are more difficult, or answers that are more harshly judged. It's a matter of choosing which comments to focus on and which ones to let slide. I think that instead of looking for positive "culture fit" (which just seems to encourage every interviewer to judge the candidate by whatever subconscious prejudices they have) we need to enforce "no assholes." In other words, we should flip the burden of proof. Instead of requiring the candidate to demonstrate that they are a culture fit, we need to have the interviewer demonstrate that the culture fit isn't there. In the debrief, when one of the interviewers says that the candidate was not a culture fit, I would ask them to back up that statement with specific statements or behaviors that the candidate exhibited in the interview. I think that would do a lot to counter our unconscious predilection to look favorably on people just like us and harshly on people who aren't

new299 13y ago

> As long as you have a list of conditions attached to your paycheck, this isn't going to change. It sucks, but it is how it is. You either have to play the game or find some place to work where the game is tolerable to you and your values. It doesn't matter how you cast it, but there's always a game to be played, some will seem more virtuous than others, and that will change from person to person. A reasonable workplace would be able to accommodate people with different personalities and viewpoints as long as they treat each other with respect and consideration. Such workplaces are however quite rare.