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No. What you meant to say was that a random selection from a population of 10K white and black balls in the ratio 80% white balls & 20% black balls should be ex

No. What you meant to say was that a random selection from a population of 10K white and black balls in the ratio 80% white balls & 20% black balls should be expected to be about 80% white. People aren't black or white balls. Other factors (e.g., education, IQ, health, social class, and racism, etc.) are what make the difference. To imply that the difference is attributable purely to racism is naive and wrong-headed.

lotyrin 13y ago
Isn't the difference between random chance and the complex realities of race and socioeconomic the entire point? I don't think a definition of racism as historically and culturally naive as to be blind selection bias that exists only in the current moment is worthy of any serious consideration - only useful as a straw man for arguments such as yours here. Any serious consideration of racism involves precisely the factors you mention. Education, nutrition, IQ, are all proxies for social class and I think you have to be quite biased to ignore how race relations throughout history have had direct impact on the current social status of race groups.
icambron 13y ago
I think you must have misread the context here. The grandparent's hypothesis was that maybe the results seen here are merely the result of random chance (e.g. white and black balls being drawn from a bag). The parent was testing that hypothesis by checking the probability of getting those results purely by random chance. The answer was no, but no comment was being made about the source of that non-randomness. So yes, attributing all the differences to racism would be naive and wrongheaded (for most definitions of racism), but who's doing that?
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  > The grandparent's hypothesis was that maybe the results seen here are merely the result of random chance Not necessarily my hypothesis per se. Rather, it's the default hypothesis that you're supposed to disprove before you go on to propose other hypotheses. My problem is that I remember the existence and requirement to test the null hypothesis, but not the mechanics of how to do that. Luckily we have some people who are across basic statistics and so the conversation is able to move past "it's probably just chance" to speculate about whys.
  - icambron 13y ago
    Right, I didn't mean to imply that you believed the hypothesis, just that you were proposing it. The distinction doesn't matter much for my explanation anyway.
- giardini 13y ago
  "I think you must have misread the context here. " Yes, you are correct. My apology to all.

lotyrin 13y ago

Isn't the difference between random chance and the complex realities of race and socioeconomic the entire point? I don't think a definition of racism as historically and culturally naive as to be blind selection bias that exists only in the current moment is worthy of any serious consideration - only useful as a straw man for arguments such as yours here. Any serious consideration of racism involves precisely the factors you mention. Education, nutrition, IQ, are all proxies for social class and I think you have to be quite biased to ignore how race relations throughout history have had direct impact on the current social status of race groups.

icambron 13y ago

I think you must have misread the context here. The grandparent's hypothesis was that maybe the results seen here are merely the result of random chance (e.g. white and black balls being drawn from a bag). The parent was testing that hypothesis by checking the probability of getting those results purely by random chance. The answer was no, but no comment was being made about the source of that non-randomness. So yes, attributing all the differences to racism would be naive and wrongheaded (for most definitions of racism), but who's doing that?

jacques_chester 13y ago
> The grandparent's hypothesis was that maybe the results seen here are merely the result of random chance Not necessarily my hypothesis per se. Rather, it's the default hypothesis that you're supposed to disprove before you go on to propose other hypotheses. My problem is that I remember the existence and requirement to test the null hypothesis, but not the mechanics of how to do that. Luckily we have some people who are across basic statistics and so the conversation is able to move past "it's probably just chance" to speculate about whys.
- icambron 13y ago
  Right, I didn't mean to imply that you believed the hypothesis, just that you were proposing it. The distinction doesn't matter much for my explanation anyway.
giardini 13y ago
"I think you must have misread the context here. " Yes, you are correct. My apology to all.