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Having seen both the Swedish and American versions of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo I have to say Sweden is a bit ahead when it comes to gender representation

by stolio 13y ago

Having seen both the Swedish and American versions of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo I have to say Sweden is a bit ahead when it comes to gender representation, so they're doing something right somewhere. On the other hand, Harry Potter was written by a self-proclaimed feminist and has a very empowering female in Hermione Granger, if that series fails the Bechdel Test then I'm left wondering how many other false-positives the test throws. Even The Vagina Monologues fails the Bechdel Test (to be fair, because monologues).

mchaver 13y ago
It's definitely a flawed metric, but I doubt most metrics start out perfectly and there is nothing wrong with that. It's value is in starting a dialogue and I am sure it can be improved with iteration. Some minor issues fact-based movies, documentaries: biographical movies (if it is the story of a man and there are no women in his life that doesn't necessarily make it chauvinistic), historical movies (if it is a movie about anti-feminist or chauvinistic events, does that necessarily make it anti-feminist even if the goal is to educate?)
- stolio 13y ago
  The test has had almost 30 years to develop The general problem that I see in both the test and the problem it's designed to solve is this mental shortcut of an either/or grouping. Male/female, pass/fail. But if it helps some people start dialogue then that's wonderful, at the same time I think the intersectionalist feminists deserve some positive attention for searching out new ways to get the conversations going.
  - saraid216 13y ago
    > at the same time I think the intersectionalist feminists deserve some positive attention for searching out new ways to get the conversations going. I'm confused that you say this, but do not actually link any such ways. I'd personally be happy to give them some positive attention, but feminism isn't something I spend much time on so I don't know the latest stuff going on.
    - stolio 13y ago
      That's fair, I've just had positive personal experiences with the intersectionalists IRL. As a guy, I've felt the conversations have been less adversarial and more productive. I can say it's a more nuanced critique of privilege then say radical feminism, but whether my positive experiences are rooted in a better theory or just in the people attracted to it I don't really know.
saraid216 13y ago
It throws a lot of false positive and false negatives; it's not actually useful for any analysis involving rigor. Never use it to make a final judgement call. But it can serve as a smoke test. Harry Potter, for instance, does have a fairly empowering female in Hermione, but the series itself has a lot of problems, not all of them feminist in nature. Not sure how much spoilering or detail I really ought to go into it here.
- stolio 13y ago
  > It throws a lot of false positive and false negatives; it's not actually useful for any analysis involving rigor. If a tool carries a lot of weight, has little accuracy and is only used against one's opponents - that tool has a lot in common with a bludgeon.

by stolio 13y ago

mchaver 13y ago

It's definitely a flawed metric, but I doubt most metrics start out perfectly and there is nothing wrong with that. It's value is in starting a dialogue and I am sure it can be improved with iteration. Some minor issues fact-based movies, documentaries: biographical movies (if it is the story of a man and there are no women in his life that doesn't necessarily make it chauvinistic), historical movies (if it is a movie about anti-feminist or chauvinistic events, does that necessarily make it anti-feminist even if the goal is to educate?)

stolio 13y ago
The test has had almost 30 years to develop The general problem that I see in both the test and the problem it's designed to solve is this mental shortcut of an either/or grouping. Male/female, pass/fail. But if it helps some people start dialogue then that's wonderful, at the same time I think the intersectionalist feminists deserve some positive attention for searching out new ways to get the conversations going.
- saraid216 13y ago
  > at the same time I think the intersectionalist feminists deserve some positive attention for searching out new ways to get the conversations going. I'm confused that you say this, but do not actually link any such ways. I'd personally be happy to give them some positive attention, but feminism isn't something I spend much time on so I don't know the latest stuff going on.
  - stolio 13y ago
    That's fair, I've just had positive personal experiences with the intersectionalists IRL. As a guy, I've felt the conversations have been less adversarial and more productive. I can say it's a more nuanced critique of privilege then say radical feminism, but whether my positive experiences are rooted in a better theory or just in the people attracted to it I don't really know.

saraid216 13y ago

It throws a lot of false positive and false negatives; it's not actually useful for any analysis involving rigor. Never use it to make a final judgement call. But it can serve as a smoke test. Harry Potter, for instance, does have a fairly empowering female in Hermione, but the series itself has a lot of problems, not all of them feminist in nature. Not sure how much spoilering or detail I really ought to go into it here.

stolio 13y ago
> It throws a lot of false positive and false negatives; it's not actually useful for any analysis involving rigor. If a tool carries a lot of weight, has little accuracy and is only used against one's opponents - that tool has a lot in common with a bludgeon.