8 ms·

I don't see the Silk Roads of the world making much difference with regard to the drug war. Right now Silk Road is the eBay of drugs, where convenience is it's

I don't see the Silk Roads of the world making much difference with regard to the drug war. Right now Silk Road is the eBay of drugs, where convenience is it's competitive advantage. I can get some drug without visiting a shady person in some shady place, but the drugs (in general) are still coming to the US the bloody, violent way via paramilitaries, druglords, etc. A huge part of the US war on drugs takes place among and between those parties, with the US not always supporting the side you might expect. I'd be more excited about an Etsy of drugs, where people could buy whatever they want straight from the source, bypassing the blood trail. Good luck getting packages delivered from Afghanistan or Colombia though.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
joshontheweb 13y ago
| but the drugs (in general) are still coming to the US th bloody, violent way via paramilitaries, druglords, etc. Not necessarily. A lot of them appear to be shipped in via post from outside the US direct to the buyer.
- subpixel 13y ago
  I was trying to point out that the drug war doesn't begin or end at the border.
  - jbackus 13y ago
    Yes, but that is where most of the enforcement is and therefore most of the violence.
    - XorNot 13y ago
      Wow, this is incredibly uninformed. For one thing, no one's bothering to attack the US border, whereas in Brazil the government is fighting numerous active paramilitary groups which are basically all just fighting each other for control of the drug trade.
      - jbackus 13y ago
        Yeah didn't really think that through before writing, majority is the wrong word. I didn't mean attacking the border, I just meant that a lot of the violence occurs near the border as most cartels set up shop in locations most appropriate for later distribution into the U.S.
stcredzero 13y ago
> I'd be more excited about an Etsy of drugs I think you mean more of an Amazon Marketplace of drugs. > the drugs (in general) are still coming to the US the bloody, violent way via paramilitaries, druglords, etc. If the information and payment infrastructure is good enough, it should make producers and shippers invisible to other producers and shippers, including the paramilitaries and drug-lords.
- schenecstasy 13y ago
  I'm looking for an Etsy for drugs. I want my synthetic opiates cradled in a lace & cordoroy kerchief that states "rustic charm".
  - angersock 13y ago
    Vintage blotters?
  - dobbsbob 13y ago
    It's called Alibaba. I haven't checked in about a year but I recall finding MDMA precursors, Meth precursors and bulk Opium for sale on it.
    - lowkeykiwi 13y ago
      mmmmm bulk opium
- Alex3917 13y ago
  For what it's worth, you can currently buy drugs on both Amazon marketplace and Etsy. It's not even a hypothetical.
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    In this context, we really mean illegal drugs. You obviously know this and are just being annoyingly pedantic.
kin 13y ago
The previous silk road claimed to have many listings where the chemists themselves produced and shipped from Europe
jbackus 13y ago
You can use digital black markets like the silk road as an analogue for legalization though. Forget how the vendors obtain the drugs for a second and just analyze the differences in distribution and consumption between offline and online drug trade. Offline there is: - competition via violence - political narcoterrorism - profit maximization by product dilution - profit maximization by product deception (most street MDMA is amphetamine+nBOME mixture) Online there is: - competition via quality, price (violence impossible in anonymous marketplace) - political separation via anonymity - drastically reduced product dilution (people do reviews with sources like ecstasydata.org) - drastically reduced product deception (see "The LSD Avengers" for example) When you contrast these aspects you see that the online marketplaces do operate like a free market with the biggest difference being the incentives associated with deceptive vending. I think thats valuable just because it provides a real world simulation for what variables of legalization would look like without forcing any one country to take the initial plunge by themselves.
- philfreo 13y ago
  > violence impossible in anonymous marketplace if you read the report about the 1st silk road, you'll see that's not true
  - jbackus 13y ago
    Alright. Let's assume the massive difference in quantity of violence is substantial. We're talking 10s of thousands dead via cartel trade vs. 2 alleged attempted hits on the silk road. Even then that was the operator of the marketplace defending users, it wasn't a vendor killing another vendor to gain a competitive advantage.
    - OvidNaso 13y ago
      But your analysis specifically excluded the source of all of this violence, the wholesale procurement of the drugs by the end user dealers. None of that is different with the Silk Road.
nostromo 13y ago
But the competitive advantage of druglords is controlling the means of distribution, not the means of cultivation. So, SilkRoad could help bypass those monopolized distribution channels and undermine the druglord's competitive advantage. For example, if a druglord is competing directly with a mom-and-pop drug cultivator on SilkRoad -- the drug lord has higher costs (bribery, paramilitary force, etc.) and only marginally lower COGS from scale. Because they are unable to intimidate or kill other cultivators, like they do in meat space, the druglord could be at a real disadvantage.
- jzzskijj 13y ago
  The druglord would wipe out the mom-and-pop cultivator and happily live ever after with their higher costs.
  - freshhawk 13y ago
    That seems like it wouldn't be cost effective for them if there is even a small amount of anonymity between the buyers and cultivators. I mean, cartels have been pumped up to pretty ridiculous heights by the war on drugs but it's not at the point where it would be realistic to have them say "here is a list of a few hundred usernames from SilkRoad spread out all over North America. Find them and murder them all." Even considering that their MO is more along the lines of picking out the ones they can find and making a gruesome spectacle to scare the rest it still seems unrealistic, although so do a lot of things happening with drugs cartels these days to be fair.
    - pizza234 13y ago
      >> it's not at the point where it would be realistic to have them say "here is a list of a few hundred usernames from SilkRoad spread out all over North America. Find them and murder them all." This is not exact, unfortunately, because it depends also on some other factors. If the drug lords decide that they want to impose the fact that they don't accept opposition, they are actually going to do exactly that. They've done it already for several bloggers, it would make little difference if they decided to do it for the little indipendent dealers. Keep in mind that in order to take out a few hundred independent dealears, they only need to torture and kill a few, and have the word spread.
Havoc 13y ago
>I don't see the Silk Roads of the world making much difference with regard to the drug war. It has symbolic value I think. While I don't feel particularly anarchistic, I think a solid dose of a rebellious streak in society is good. Just to keep the government on its toes. A counterforce to governments tendency to do NSA scandal type stuff if you will.
Erwin 13y ago
Here's what I'd consider the Etsy of drugs: http://www.rechemco.net/ http://www.rechemco.net/ -- they apparently synthesize the various active ingredients in their own lab, so you can get your 99% pure version of say, the various popular anti-narcoleptic drugs popular as concentration aids.
brianbreslin 13y ago
When you suggested etsy of drugs, my first thought was custom made to order small batches of drugs. Not farmer to addict direct sales.
tedks 13y ago
IIRC, the biggest drug on the Silk Road was marijuana, which was probably not cartel grown. There are plenty of places in the US where it's effectively legal to grow marijuana, and the growers who have a legal enterprise almost certainly produce plenty on the side for the black market. Cocaine and heroin are different stories, but are probably the exception compared to marijuana, various drugs that need to be lab-synthesized, and prescription pills being resold.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

joshontheweb 13y ago

| but the drugs (in general) are still coming to the US th bloody, violent way via paramilitaries, druglords, etc. Not necessarily. A lot of them appear to be shipped in via post from outside the US direct to the buyer.

subpixel 13y ago
I was trying to point out that the drug war doesn't begin or end at the border.
- jbackus 13y ago
  Yes, but that is where most of the enforcement is and therefore most of the violence.
  - XorNot 13y ago
    Wow, this is incredibly uninformed. For one thing, no one's bothering to attack the US border, whereas in Brazil the government is fighting numerous active paramilitary groups which are basically all just fighting each other for control of the drug trade.
    - jbackus 13y ago
      Yeah didn't really think that through before writing, majority is the wrong word. I didn't mean attacking the border, I just meant that a lot of the violence occurs near the border as most cartels set up shop in locations most appropriate for later distribution into the U.S.

stcredzero 13y ago

> I'd be more excited about an Etsy of drugs I think you mean more of an Amazon Marketplace of drugs. > the drugs (in general) are still coming to the US the bloody, violent way via paramilitaries, druglords, etc. If the information and payment infrastructure is good enough, it should make producers and shippers invisible to other producers and shippers, including the paramilitaries and drug-lords.

schenecstasy 13y ago
I'm looking for an Etsy for drugs. I want my synthetic opiates cradled in a lace & cordoroy kerchief that states "rustic charm".
- angersock 13y ago
  Vintage blotters?
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  It's called Alibaba. I haven't checked in about a year but I recall finding MDMA precursors, Meth precursors and bulk Opium for sale on it.
  - lowkeykiwi 13y ago
    mmmmm bulk opium
Alex3917 13y ago
For what it's worth, you can currently buy drugs on both Amazon marketplace and Etsy. It's not even a hypothetical.
- stcredzero 13y ago
  In this context, we really mean illegal drugs. You obviously know this and are just being annoyingly pedantic.

kin 13y ago

The previous silk road claimed to have many listings where the chemists themselves produced and shipped from Europe

jbackus 13y ago

You can use digital black markets like the silk road as an analogue for legalization though. Forget how the vendors obtain the drugs for a second and just analyze the differences in distribution and consumption between offline and online drug trade. Offline there is: - competition via violence - political narcoterrorism - profit maximization by product dilution - profit maximization by product deception (most street MDMA is amphetamine+nBOME mixture) Online there is: - competition via quality, price (violence impossible in anonymous marketplace) - political separation via anonymity - drastically reduced product dilution (people do reviews with sources like ecstasydata.org) - drastically reduced product deception (see "The LSD Avengers" for example) When you contrast these aspects you see that the online marketplaces do operate like a free market with the biggest difference being the incentives associated with deceptive vending. I think thats valuable just because it provides a real world simulation for what variables of legalization would look like without forcing any one country to take the initial plunge by themselves.

philfreo 13y ago
> violence impossible in anonymous marketplace if you read the report about the 1st silk road, you'll see that's not true
- jbackus 13y ago
  Alright. Let's assume the massive difference in quantity of violence is substantial. We're talking 10s of thousands dead via cartel trade vs. 2 alleged attempted hits on the silk road. Even then that was the operator of the marketplace defending users, it wasn't a vendor killing another vendor to gain a competitive advantage.
  - OvidNaso 13y ago
    But your analysis specifically excluded the source of all of this violence, the wholesale procurement of the drugs by the end user dealers. None of that is different with the Silk Road.

nostromo 13y ago

But the competitive advantage of druglords is controlling the means of distribution, not the means of cultivation. So, SilkRoad could help bypass those monopolized distribution channels and undermine the druglord's competitive advantage. For example, if a druglord is competing directly with a mom-and-pop drug cultivator on SilkRoad -- the drug lord has higher costs (bribery, paramilitary force, etc.) and only marginally lower COGS from scale. Because they are unable to intimidate or kill other cultivators, like they do in meat space, the druglord could be at a real disadvantage.

jzzskijj 13y ago
The druglord would wipe out the mom-and-pop cultivator and happily live ever after with their higher costs.
- freshhawk 13y ago
  That seems like it wouldn't be cost effective for them if there is even a small amount of anonymity between the buyers and cultivators. I mean, cartels have been pumped up to pretty ridiculous heights by the war on drugs but it's not at the point where it would be realistic to have them say "here is a list of a few hundred usernames from SilkRoad spread out all over North America. Find them and murder them all." Even considering that their MO is more along the lines of picking out the ones they can find and making a gruesome spectacle to scare the rest it still seems unrealistic, although so do a lot of things happening with drugs cartels these days to be fair.
  - pizza234 13y ago
    >> it's not at the point where it would be realistic to have them say "here is a list of a few hundred usernames from SilkRoad spread out all over North America. Find them and murder them all." This is not exact, unfortunately, because it depends also on some other factors. If the drug lords decide that they want to impose the fact that they don't accept opposition, they are actually going to do exactly that. They've done it already for several bloggers, it would make little difference if they decided to do it for the little indipendent dealers. Keep in mind that in order to take out a few hundred independent dealears, they only need to torture and kill a few, and have the word spread.

Havoc 13y ago

>I don't see the Silk Roads of the world making much difference with regard to the drug war. It has symbolic value I think. While I don't feel particularly anarchistic, I think a solid dose of a rebellious streak in society is good. Just to keep the government on its toes. A counterforce to governments tendency to do NSA scandal type stuff if you will.

Erwin 13y ago

Here's what I'd consider the Etsy of drugs: http://www.rechemco.net/ http://www.rechemco.net/ -- they apparently synthesize the various active ingredients in their own lab, so you can get your 99% pure version of say, the various popular anti-narcoleptic drugs popular as concentration aids.

brianbreslin 13y ago

When you suggested etsy of drugs, my first thought was custom made to order small batches of drugs. Not farmer to addict direct sales.

tedks 13y ago

IIRC, the biggest drug on the Silk Road was marijuana, which was probably not cartel grown. There are plenty of places in the US where it's effectively legal to grow marijuana, and the growers who have a legal enterprise almost certainly produce plenty on the side for the black market. Cocaine and heroin are different stories, but are probably the exception compared to marijuana, various drugs that need to be lab-synthesized, and prescription pills being resold.