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Can't. I so disbelieve in his argument that I won't sign up for G+. Besides, as Upton Sinclair was fond of saying, "It is difficult to get a man to understand

by Amadou 13y ago

Can't. I so disbelieve in his argument that I won't sign up for G+. Besides, as Upton Sinclair was fond of saying, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

enneff 13y ago
I'm suggesting you could rebut his argument here instead of just insulting his integrity.
- wzdd 13y ago
  Hearn claimed that there are two ways to fund services: through advertising, and through direct user payment. This is wrong. There are plenty of other ways to fund services. You could fund them indirectly, through sales of another product. Think about Apple giving away its software and Web services (funded by hardware sales), or Microsoft giving away its Web services (funded mostly by software sales), or even of Google's nonprofitable services and projects (the ultimate income source here is ads, but it needn't be). Alternatively, you could accept some anonymous form of payment. Bitcoin is the obvious one, but there are plenty of others -- gift cards come to mind, and these have been pretty successful for iTunes and the XBOX arcade. Or, of course, there's cash, Bitcoin, and other less convenient or mature technologies. Finally, the argument is a little disingenuous, given Google's push, with Google Plus, to know people's real identity anyway. It is clear that "advertising = better privacy" isn't a Google goal, at the high level.
- Amadou 13y ago
  I doubt he's reading this - but for you, sure... His claim is that there aren't any viable anonymous payment systems for the web but that advertising is semi anonymous, so that's better. (1) There are ways to make anonymous payments on the net, I can use cash to buy cash-cards in denominations up to $500 that work just like debit cards online, they are even branded with Visa and/or MasterCard. Until a couple of years ago you could buy even larger denominations but war on terror hysteria made it illegal to do without providing ID. None of the entrenched powers seemed to mind the new regulations all that much, which leads too... (2) The rise of advertising as the primary source of online funding has choked out development of alternative online payment systems in the same way that an invasive species chokes out native species that occupy the same ecological niche. If it weren't for companies like google we wouldn't be in the situation we are now because a lot more work would have gone into the development of alternative payment systems. (3) The entire goal of modern online advertising is to identify and track users as narrowly as possible so as to better "target" them. The more sophisticated online advertising systems become, the less anonymous the users become. Companies like BlueKai and hundreds of others exist to connect your real-life identity (and associated database entries) with your online activity. Even google does it with their real names policy for g+. So instead of each vendor only knowing about the specific transactions they have with you, there exist multiple databases that amalgamate all of your transactions (online and offline) across multiple vendors into one central record that is for sale. I'm well aware that Google thinks their user records are super proprietary and that they would never make that data openly available outside of Google, but (1) they are far from the only holder of such data and many of the others see selling/renting that database as their main source of profit, (2) sophisticated use of targeted ad-buys can indirectly mine Google's data, it's not as easy as just buying access like you would from a place like Experian but it is feasible under the right circumstances and (3) who can say if Google will have a change in corporate direction tomorrow and start selling access to all that data that they have been collecting for over a decade? So, in short, his claim was so blindered that it really was quite ridiculously naive/ignorant.
  - enneff 13y ago
    Thank you for responding in a meaningful way. I appreciate it. > There are ways to make anonymous payments on the net, I can use cash to buy cash-cards in denominations up to $500 that work just like debit cards online, they are even branded with Visa and/or MasterCard. This still puts you at greater risk of exposure than creating a Gmail account through an anonymizing proxy. Prepaid cards can be traced to where they are purchased, which at least narrows your location geographically, if not the exact location. From there the NSA could probably catch you buying it in person by reviewing CCTV footage. > The rise of advertising as the primary source of online funding has choked out development of alternative online payment systems in the same way that an invasive species chokes out native species that occupy the same ecological niche. If it weren't for companies like google we wouldn't be in the situation we are now because a lot more work would have gone into the development of alternative payment systems. I don't really understand this point. You seem to be positing a world where online advertising didn't become the dominant mechanism for making money on the web, but you don't explain how this could come about. Perhaps if "companies like Google" did not exist? But there were advertising companies before Google and there will be long after Google is gone. Advertising is an inextricable part of the global economy. It would take a revolution to change that. > So instead of each vendor only knowing about the specific transactions they have with you, there exist multiple databases that amalgamate all of your transactions (online and offline) across multiple vendors into one central record that is for sale. I think this is deeply wrong and I wouldn't be working for Google if I thought we were heading in this direction. It's not my place to comment further on your other assertions about Google. > So, in short, his claim was so blindered that it really was quite ridiculously naive/ignorant. I don't see how your argument supports this claim. Nothing you have said would be news to Mike, who has been thinking about all this stuff longer and more deeply than most people. He just has a different perspective to you, that's all.
    - Amadou 13y ago
      This still puts you at greater risk of exposure than creating a Gmail account through an anonymizing proxy. I note that you've specifically gone to the most extreme case of the state looking to track you rather than some other private entity. The NSA/FBI looking at camera footage at the point of purchase for a cash card is just as likely as the NSA de-anonymizing your proxy (well probably less likely given what the NSA has been up to). However, for private databases nobody is going to make those efforts. But what they will do (and do all the time) is cross-reference web activity to minimize anonymity and increasing "targeting." Advertising is an inextricable part of the global economy. It would take a revolution to change that. That's circular. My point is that the industry's overwhelming movement toward advertising as a payment system starved out the development of alternative payment systems, micropayments, e-cash, etc. Hell, paypal could be so much more privacy preserving simply by not disclosing your email to the seller but they don't make that trivial effort because they have no competition. I think this is deeply wrong and I wouldn't be working for Google if I thought we were heading in this direction. If you think I am specifically talking about Google, you are mistaken. Go install Ghostery and watch how simply visiting a web page like The Verge gets you into the databases of at least 7 different trackers other than Google. If Mike Hearn was arguing that google should have a monopoly on advertising because google currently doesn't deliberately share its secret stash with anyone, then that opens up a whole different line of disagreement.

by Amadou 13y ago

enneff 13y ago

I'm suggesting you could rebut his argument here instead of just insulting his integrity.

wzdd 13y ago
Hearn claimed that there are two ways to fund services: through advertising, and through direct user payment. This is wrong. There are plenty of other ways to fund services. You could fund them indirectly, through sales of another product. Think about Apple giving away its software and Web services (funded by hardware sales), or Microsoft giving away its Web services (funded mostly by software sales), or even of Google's nonprofitable services and projects (the ultimate income source here is ads, but it needn't be). Alternatively, you could accept some anonymous form of payment. Bitcoin is the obvious one, but there are plenty of others -- gift cards come to mind, and these have been pretty successful for iTunes and the XBOX arcade. Or, of course, there's cash, Bitcoin, and other less convenient or mature technologies. Finally, the argument is a little disingenuous, given Google's push, with Google Plus, to know people's real identity anyway. It is clear that "advertising = better privacy" isn't a Google goal, at the high level.
Amadou 13y ago
I doubt he's reading this - but for you, sure... His claim is that there aren't any viable anonymous payment systems for the web but that advertising is semi anonymous, so that's better. (1) There are ways to make anonymous payments on the net, I can use cash to buy cash-cards in denominations up to $500 that work just like debit cards online, they are even branded with Visa and/or MasterCard. Until a couple of years ago you could buy even larger denominations but war on terror hysteria made it illegal to do without providing ID. None of the entrenched powers seemed to mind the new regulations all that much, which leads too... (2) The rise of advertising as the primary source of online funding has choked out development of alternative online payment systems in the same way that an invasive species chokes out native species that occupy the same ecological niche. If it weren't for companies like google we wouldn't be in the situation we are now because a lot more work would have gone into the development of alternative payment systems. (3) The entire goal of modern online advertising is to identify and track users as narrowly as possible so as to better "target" them. The more sophisticated online advertising systems become, the less anonymous the users become. Companies like BlueKai and hundreds of others exist to connect your real-life identity (and associated database entries) with your online activity. Even google does it with their real names policy for g+. So instead of each vendor only knowing about the specific transactions they have with you, there exist multiple databases that amalgamate all of your transactions (online and offline) across multiple vendors into one central record that is for sale. I'm well aware that Google thinks their user records are super proprietary and that they would never make that data openly available outside of Google, but (1) they are far from the only holder of such data and many of the others see selling/renting that database as their main source of profit, (2) sophisticated use of targeted ad-buys can indirectly mine Google's data, it's not as easy as just buying access like you would from a place like Experian but it is feasible under the right circumstances and (3) who can say if Google will have a change in corporate direction tomorrow and start selling access to all that data that they have been collecting for over a decade? So, in short, his claim was so blindered that it really was quite ridiculously naive/ignorant.
- enneff 13y ago
  Thank you for responding in a meaningful way. I appreciate it. > There are ways to make anonymous payments on the net, I can use cash to buy cash-cards in denominations up to $500 that work just like debit cards online, they are even branded with Visa and/or MasterCard. This still puts you at greater risk of exposure than creating a Gmail account through an anonymizing proxy. Prepaid cards can be traced to where they are purchased, which at least narrows your location geographically, if not the exact location. From there the NSA could probably catch you buying it in person by reviewing CCTV footage. > The rise of advertising as the primary source of online funding has choked out development of alternative online payment systems in the same way that an invasive species chokes out native species that occupy the same ecological niche. If it weren't for companies like google we wouldn't be in the situation we are now because a lot more work would have gone into the development of alternative payment systems. I don't really understand this point. You seem to be positing a world where online advertising didn't become the dominant mechanism for making money on the web, but you don't explain how this could come about. Perhaps if "companies like Google" did not exist? But there were advertising companies before Google and there will be long after Google is gone. Advertising is an inextricable part of the global economy. It would take a revolution to change that. > So instead of each vendor only knowing about the specific transactions they have with you, there exist multiple databases that amalgamate all of your transactions (online and offline) across multiple vendors into one central record that is for sale. I think this is deeply wrong and I wouldn't be working for Google if I thought we were heading in this direction. It's not my place to comment further on your other assertions about Google. > So, in short, his claim was so blindered that it really was quite ridiculously naive/ignorant. I don't see how your argument supports this claim. Nothing you have said would be news to Mike, who has been thinking about all this stuff longer and more deeply than most people. He just has a different perspective to you, that's all.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    This still puts you at greater risk of exposure than creating a Gmail account through an anonymizing proxy. I note that you've specifically gone to the most extreme case of the state looking to track you rather than some other private entity. The NSA/FBI looking at camera footage at the point of purchase for a cash card is just as likely as the NSA de-anonymizing your proxy (well probably less likely given what the NSA has been up to). However, for private databases nobody is going to make those efforts. But what they will do (and do all the time) is cross-reference web activity to minimize anonymity and increasing "targeting." Advertising is an inextricable part of the global economy. It would take a revolution to change that. That's circular. My point is that the industry's overwhelming movement toward advertising as a payment system starved out the development of alternative payment systems, micropayments, e-cash, etc. Hell, paypal could be so much more privacy preserving simply by not disclosing your email to the seller but they don't make that trivial effort because they have no competition. I think this is deeply wrong and I wouldn't be working for Google if I thought we were heading in this direction. If you think I am specifically talking about Google, you are mistaken. Go install Ghostery and watch how simply visiting a web page like The Verge gets you into the databases of at least 7 different trackers other than Google. If Mike Hearn was arguing that google should have a monopoly on advertising because google currently doesn't deliberately share its secret stash with anyone, then that opens up a whole different line of disagreement.