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One rdtsc does not make a flock :P But I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment in language design. I don't even really have any problem with Angul

One rdtsc does not make a flock :P But I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment in language design. I don't even really have any problem with Angular.dart. We can always use another language that transpiles down to javascript. People are free to use what they want. (Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.) I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web. There's nothing to distinguish it from any other language, and it has to deal with backlash like this.

rdtsc 13y ago
> I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; How are you driving it home besides just repeating it without any other supporting statements? Saying something 3 times doesn't make it truer. > Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web Still don't get why it wouldn't. What is qualitatively different about DartVM vs v8. It could be 2-3 development cycles away from inclusion should Google decide to do it. What exactly code-wise is preventing that to happen? > Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.) Looking at their benchmarks their dart2js is not too far off v8 numbers. Now add types plus a nice IDE and I can see how a larger project might choose instead of JS.
- Helianthus 13y ago
  There's a bit of a chicken-egg problem with a project choosing Dart, in that Dart has to already be ubiquitous for it to even be an option. What is the pathway for Dart adoption? Google puts it in Chrome. Sure. Dart programmers get to deploy to the Chrome browser, so they do some fun side projects and they run on Chrome only. Fine. Show me how Dart can then move to every browser on every device. Then show me how whatever hypothetical process you came up with doesn't apply to any other language that currently exists. If we're going to put a new runtime in the browser, Dart isn't the only option.
  - spankalee 13y ago
    > What is the pathway for Dart adoption? dart2js: https://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and-running/contents/ch04-tools-dart2js.html https://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and-running/contents/c...
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      How is that different from all the other languages out there that transpile to JavaScript?
      - afsina 13y ago
        Dart's one advantage is very fast development cycle if you use Dart VM in Dartium. No js compilation needed. Very well designed user APIs, Excellent modularity (with pub) and good editor support eliminates many opponents.
        pjmlp 13y ago
        I have that with many other languages as well.
        afsina 13y ago
        name one (especially skipping js translation step for development).
        pjmlp 13y ago
        JavaScript
      - rdtsc 13y ago
        It has a VM that has a high chance of being integrated into a major browser.
mythz 13y ago
IMO Dart is the most productive language for general purpose programming I've ever used, and so do many of the other ~3,300 members of the Dartisans community: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/114566943291919232850 https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/11456694329191923285... I'm personally happy that there's still hope we have a future option for a re-invented language optimized for web development rather relying on the glacial pace of continually patching JS to make it more maintainable. It's a small yet powerfully expressive language that's easy to learn, it's very well thought-out and balanced providing greater consistency in both language and library behavior which is a nice contrast to the dump of incompatible JS fx's, it's optional typing adds a lot less friction and is a lot more productive that statically-typed langs, but also provides time-saving compiler feedback alerting errors as you type. It's support for source-maps are best-in-class whilst Dartium provides strong tool-ability and debug support and very fast live-reload cycles. Dart is an awesome option even without considering it's ~10x faster start-up times with Snapshots or its fast run-time performance which sees it can solve the Norvig's top95 Sudoku grids 200x times faster than Ruby: https://github.com/dartist/sudoku_solver#side-by-side-results-summary https://github.com/dartist/sudoku_solver#side-by-side-result... Dart's not perfect and there are some language features I wish it had but over-all I think it's a magnitude better option than vanilla JS. It currently has less momentum than JS, but I hope to see that change as a JS-only future ensures web development will be forever stuck in the middle-ages.

rdtsc 13y ago

> I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; How are you driving it home besides just repeating it without any other supporting statements? Saying something 3 times doesn't make it truer. > Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web Still don't get why it wouldn't. What is qualitatively different about DartVM vs v8. It could be 2-3 development cycles away from inclusion should Google decide to do it. What exactly code-wise is preventing that to happen? > Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.) Looking at their benchmarks their dart2js is not too far off v8 numbers. Now add types plus a nice IDE and I can see how a larger project might choose instead of JS.

Helianthus 13y ago
There's a bit of a chicken-egg problem with a project choosing Dart, in that Dart has to already be ubiquitous for it to even be an option. What is the pathway for Dart adoption? Google puts it in Chrome. Sure. Dart programmers get to deploy to the Chrome browser, so they do some fun side projects and they run on Chrome only. Fine. Show me how Dart can then move to every browser on every device. Then show me how whatever hypothetical process you came up with doesn't apply to any other language that currently exists. If we're going to put a new runtime in the browser, Dart isn't the only option.
- spankalee 13y ago
  > What is the pathway for Dart adoption? dart2js: https://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and-running/contents/ch04-tools-dart2js.html https://www.dartlang.org/docs/dart-up-and-running/contents/c...
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    How is that different from all the other languages out there that transpile to JavaScript?
    - afsina 13y ago
      Dart's one advantage is very fast development cycle if you use Dart VM in Dartium. No js compilation needed. Very well designed user APIs, Excellent modularity (with pub) and good editor support eliminates many opponents.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        I have that with many other languages as well.
        afsina 13y ago
        name one (especially skipping js translation step for development).
        pjmlp 13y ago
        JavaScript
    - rdtsc 13y ago
      It has a VM that has a high chance of being integrated into a major browser.

mythz 13y ago

IMO Dart is the most productive language for general purpose programming I've ever used, and so do many of the other ~3,300 members of the Dartisans community: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/114566943291919232850 https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/11456694329191923285... I'm personally happy that there's still hope we have a future option for a re-invented language optimized for web development rather relying on the glacial pace of continually patching JS to make it more maintainable. It's a small yet powerfully expressive language that's easy to learn, it's very well thought-out and balanced providing greater consistency in both language and library behavior which is a nice contrast to the dump of incompatible JS fx's, it's optional typing adds a lot less friction and is a lot more productive that statically-typed langs, but also provides time-saving compiler feedback alerting errors as you type. It's support for source-maps are best-in-class whilst Dartium provides strong tool-ability and debug support and very fast live-reload cycles. Dart is an awesome option even without considering it's ~10x faster start-up times with Snapshots or its fast run-time performance which sees it can solve the Norvig's top95 Sudoku grids 200x times faster than Ruby: https://github.com/dartist/sudoku_solver#side-by-side-results-summary https://github.com/dartist/sudoku_solver#side-by-side-result... Dart's not perfect and there are some language features I wish it had but over-all I think it's a magnitude better option than vanilla JS. It currently has less momentum than JS, but I hope to see that change as a JS-only future ensures web development will be forever stuck in the middle-ages.