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I've always wondered about this. I can buy the idea that a judge would compel you to fake a written canary like this. But how far would they go? What if you re

by sgentle 13y ago

I've always wondered about this. I can buy the idea that a judge would compel you to fake a written canary like this. But how far would they go? What if you recorded a monthly video of yourself naked singing the national anthem with "I have not received any secret warrants under the patriot act" scrawled on your chest in lipstick? Could a judge really compel you to do that?

jlgreco 13y ago
At a certain point, I think somebody with sufficient resources could mount a strong objection to such a compulsion on the grounds that it was either a violation of the 13th amendment or the 8th amendment (since the 13th has an exception for punishment). Make a video every month of yourself (voluntarily) getting whipped while stating that you had not been served any warrants. If they said that they were compelling to you do it, you could argue involuntary servitude. If they argued that did not apply since it was a punishment for a crime committed, you could argue cruel and unusual punishment. Ultimately, in theory, they can't stop you from quitting your job and shutting down your business. It seems as though that is somewhat effective.
- stevecooperorg 13y ago
  Best thing I've read all week. Thanks :)
- michaelt 13y ago
  Consider a large company like Google or Apple. You don't subpoena and gag the guy that gets whipped in the video. You don't even subpoena and gag the CEO, the head of legal, or the guy who writes the transparency reports. You subpoena a mid-level manager or a helpdesk guy or a janitor with the right set of keys, and gag them from telling anyone else at the company.
cpleppert 13y ago
>>I can buy the idea that a judge would compel you to fake a written canary like this. I don't know how that could happen. >>Could a judge really compel you to do that? No, but if you didn't do it and the purpose of doing the action in the first place was to be able to violate a gag order you would be violating that order. So at that point you would have to decide between breaking the law or being deceitful. The judge wouldn't have to order you to do anything.
- comrade_ogilvy 13y ago
  Being deceitful about something that a reasonable person could construe as relevant to the value of the corporation in a public document could be a crime. Stockholders have rights. I think a case can be made that public perceptions about how effectively Apple protects customer data is relevant to the company's perceived value to its customers, and therefore to its stockholders. There is an interesting question here about whether a judge could order someone to commit a crime. Would he have the balls to put that in writing? Can the CEO simply refuse to publish his quarterly results because he cannot certify it is accurate and complete under SOX? Sorry, SEC. Go talk to the secret judge.

by sgentle 13y ago

jlgreco 13y ago

At a certain point, I think somebody with sufficient resources could mount a strong objection to such a compulsion on the grounds that it was either a violation of the 13th amendment or the 8th amendment (since the 13th has an exception for punishment). Make a video every month of yourself (voluntarily) getting whipped while stating that you had not been served any warrants. If they said that they were compelling to you do it, you could argue involuntary servitude. If they argued that did not apply since it was a punishment for a crime committed, you could argue cruel and unusual punishment. Ultimately, in theory, they can't stop you from quitting your job and shutting down your business. It seems as though that is somewhat effective.

stevecooperorg 13y ago
Best thing I've read all week. Thanks :)
michaelt 13y ago
Consider a large company like Google or Apple. You don't subpoena and gag the guy that gets whipped in the video. You don't even subpoena and gag the CEO, the head of legal, or the guy who writes the transparency reports. You subpoena a mid-level manager or a helpdesk guy or a janitor with the right set of keys, and gag them from telling anyone else at the company.

cpleppert 13y ago

>>I can buy the idea that a judge would compel you to fake a written canary like this. I don't know how that could happen. >>Could a judge really compel you to do that? No, but if you didn't do it and the purpose of doing the action in the first place was to be able to violate a gag order you would be violating that order. So at that point you would have to decide between breaking the law or being deceitful. The judge wouldn't have to order you to do anything.

comrade_ogilvy 13y ago
Being deceitful about something that a reasonable person could construe as relevant to the value of the corporation in a public document could be a crime. Stockholders have rights. I think a case can be made that public perceptions about how effectively Apple protects customer data is relevant to the company's perceived value to its customers, and therefore to its stockholders. There is an interesting question here about whether a judge could order someone to commit a crime. Would he have the balls to put that in writing? Can the CEO simply refuse to publish his quarterly results because he cannot certify it is accurate and complete under SOX? Sorry, SEC. Go talk to the secret judge.