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I'm aware of JS language angst, yes. Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it. You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it

I'm aware of JS language angst, yes. Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it. You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it if you want, but that won't make Dart more reasonable or beneficial.

detst 13y ago
> reasoning behind it In all of your condescending[1] comments, you have forgotten to actually articulate what your reasoning is. These are as close as you got: Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions Google's overbearing intention is obvious flawed language this one is doomed to fail forced down our throat [1] I'll Identify these on request. They're unwarranted, counter-productive and rude.
- Helianthus 13y ago
  Oh, why not? I wouldn't mind watching a highlight reel and you seem so gleeful. --- I think my reasoning throughout this page has been more or less articulated, but I suppose I might try for a compact representation. What exactly do you think is going to happen with Dart? Is Google going to add Dart to every Chrome install? Sure, maybe. Will so many developers cry out that Safari and IE will also be forced to implement Dart runtimes? Is every single browser going to run Dart because Dart will have made such a compelling case that it and it alone is preferable to javascript? Why not python? Why not C, Java, Scala? We could be running those languages in browsers just as easily as we might run Dart. Do you think Dart is that amazing? Do you think Dart is just so wonderful that it'll unite the programming world as never before? No. Even Google's pet framework is divided and recoiling. The problem isn't that Dart has to compete with javascript, it's that it has to compete with every other language out there, and it's just not that special. Why Dart? If we're going to be serious about ripping up browsers, why Dart? Now, I maybe should make it more clear: I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment, Dart as a transpiled language, or even Angular.dart. But Google doesn't get to decide the future of the web just because it has a bunch of fancy language designers. Google is trying to shove Dart down our throats, and it's not working, and it's not going to work. Dart will remain a transpiled-to-js language for a time, and then fall off the radar when it's clear that it doesn't transpile to js very well. The alternative is a fantasy.
  - detst 13y ago
    You claimed that Dart is a flawed language. Substantiate that claim. Basic stuff here. If you can't, I must assume you're a troll or have no clue yet somehow think you do. > Do you think Dart is that amazing? Do you think Dart is just so wonderful that it'll unite the programming world as never before? The world isn't black and white. Dart doesn't have to be perfect to be a viable alternative to JS. > Even Google's pet framework is divided and recoiling. No, they both thrive and benefit from the other. It is a feature. The same thing is happening with Polymer. > Why Dart? Take a cursory look and you'll find some arguments for Dart but I would think you would have covered this before having such a strong opinion. > Google is trying to shove Dart down our throats Said multiple times. Substantiate please. > fall off the radar when it's clear that it doesn't transpile to js very well. The alternative is a fantasy. So you know more about dart2js capabilities than the creators of V8 and Dart? This is the condescending and arrogant attitude I spoke of. https://www.dartlang.org/performance/ https://www.dartlang.org/performance/
    - Helianthus 13y ago
      >You claimed that Dart is a flawed language. I was echoing OP (the one who was bemoaning snark and cynicism). Read his paragraphs. Flawed doesn't mean crippled. There are things about Dart I like. A language can't be perfect. >No, they both thrive and benefit from the other. Pay attention to negative feedback. Some substantial portion of AngularJS devs are unhappy. >Take a cursory look and you'll find some arguments for Dart I'm not arguing for Dart's existence here, I'm saying Dart has absolutely no chance of securing the browser's runtime over javascript. Why Dart, why not Go? >So you know more about dart2js capabilities than the creators of V8 and Dart? https://github.com/jbdeboer/angular-dart-js-size/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/jbdeboer/angular-dart-js-size/blob/master... 173KB. This is ridiculous. Say whatever you want about benchmarks, Angular.dart is either a terrible port (quite possible) or Dart's transpiler isn't on the level of CoffeeScript or TypeScript. >This is the condescending and arrogant attitude I spoke of. I'm asserting something grand and sweeping that I think to be true. Get over it or walk away.
      - detst 13y ago
rdtsc 13y ago
I am flocking to Dart. Just because there are handful of "developers" yelling and spitting at everyone here doesn't mean others don't like Dart or are not learning it. They just don't yell and spit in everyone's face about so it makes it seems like "OMG nobody uses Dart, please shut it down". Dart is a great language, I like it. It has consistent typing rules, very fast, has a good IDE. I for one, would like to thank Google for working on it and open sourcing it.
- Helianthus 13y ago
  One rdtsc does not make a flock :P But I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment in language design. I don't even really have any problem with Angular.dart. We can always use another language that transpiles down to javascript. People are free to use what they want. (Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.) I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web. There's nothing to distinguish it from any other language, and it has to deal with backlash like this.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    > I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; How are you driving it home besides just repeating it without any other supporting statements? Saying something 3 times doesn't make it truer. > Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web Still don't get why it wouldn't. What is qualitatively different about DartVM vs v8. It could be 2-3 development cycles away from inclusion should Google decide to do it. What exactly code-wise is preventing that to happen? > Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.) Looking at their benchmarks their dart2js is not too far off v8 numbers. Now add types plus a nice IDE and I can see how a larger project might choose instead of JS.
    - Helianthus 13y ago
      There's a bit of a chicken-egg problem with a project choosing Dart, in that Dart has to already be ubiquitous for it to even be an option. What is the pathway for Dart adoption? Google puts it in Chrome. Sure. Dart programmers get to deploy to the Chrome browser, so they do some fun side projects and they run on Chrome only. Fine. Show me how Dart can then move to every browser on every device. Then show me how whatever hypothetical process you came up with doesn't apply to any other language that currently exists. If we're going to put a new runtime in the browser, Dart isn't the only option.

detst 13y ago

> reasoning behind it In all of your condescending[1] comments, you have forgotten to actually articulate what your reasoning is. These are as close as you got: Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions Google's overbearing intention is obvious flawed language this one is doomed to fail forced down our throat [1] I'll Identify these on request. They're unwarranted, counter-productive and rude.

Helianthus 13y ago
Oh, why not? I wouldn't mind watching a highlight reel and you seem so gleeful. --- I think my reasoning throughout this page has been more or less articulated, but I suppose I might try for a compact representation. What exactly do you think is going to happen with Dart? Is Google going to add Dart to every Chrome install? Sure, maybe. Will so many developers cry out that Safari and IE will also be forced to implement Dart runtimes? Is every single browser going to run Dart because Dart will have made such a compelling case that it and it alone is preferable to javascript? Why not python? Why not C, Java, Scala? We could be running those languages in browsers just as easily as we might run Dart. Do you think Dart is that amazing? Do you think Dart is just so wonderful that it'll unite the programming world as never before? No. Even Google's pet framework is divided and recoiling. The problem isn't that Dart has to compete with javascript, it's that it has to compete with every other language out there, and it's just not that special. Why Dart? If we're going to be serious about ripping up browsers, why Dart? Now, I maybe should make it more clear: I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment, Dart as a transpiled language, or even Angular.dart. But Google doesn't get to decide the future of the web just because it has a bunch of fancy language designers. Google is trying to shove Dart down our throats, and it's not working, and it's not going to work. Dart will remain a transpiled-to-js language for a time, and then fall off the radar when it's clear that it doesn't transpile to js very well. The alternative is a fantasy.
- detst 13y ago
  You claimed that Dart is a flawed language. Substantiate that claim. Basic stuff here. If you can't, I must assume you're a troll or have no clue yet somehow think you do. > Do you think Dart is that amazing? Do you think Dart is just so wonderful that it'll unite the programming world as never before? The world isn't black and white. Dart doesn't have to be perfect to be a viable alternative to JS. > Even Google's pet framework is divided and recoiling. No, they both thrive and benefit from the other. It is a feature. The same thing is happening with Polymer. > Why Dart? Take a cursory look and you'll find some arguments for Dart but I would think you would have covered this before having such a strong opinion. > Google is trying to shove Dart down our throats Said multiple times. Substantiate please. > fall off the radar when it's clear that it doesn't transpile to js very well. The alternative is a fantasy. So you know more about dart2js capabilities than the creators of V8 and Dart? This is the condescending and arrogant attitude I spoke of. https://www.dartlang.org/performance/ https://www.dartlang.org/performance/
  - Helianthus 13y ago
    >You claimed that Dart is a flawed language. I was echoing OP (the one who was bemoaning snark and cynicism). Read his paragraphs. Flawed doesn't mean crippled. There are things about Dart I like. A language can't be perfect. >No, they both thrive and benefit from the other. Pay attention to negative feedback. Some substantial portion of AngularJS devs are unhappy. >Take a cursory look and you'll find some arguments for Dart I'm not arguing for Dart's existence here, I'm saying Dart has absolutely no chance of securing the browser's runtime over javascript. Why Dart, why not Go? >So you know more about dart2js capabilities than the creators of V8 and Dart? https://github.com/jbdeboer/angular-dart-js-size/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/jbdeboer/angular-dart-js-size/blob/master... 173KB. This is ridiculous. Say whatever you want about benchmarks, Angular.dart is either a terrible port (quite possible) or Dart's transpiler isn't on the level of CoffeeScript or TypeScript. >This is the condescending and arrogant attitude I spoke of. I'm asserting something grand and sweeping that I think to be true. Get over it or walk away.
    - detst 13y ago

rdtsc 13y ago

I am flocking to Dart. Just because there are handful of "developers" yelling and spitting at everyone here doesn't mean others don't like Dart or are not learning it. They just don't yell and spit in everyone's face about so it makes it seems like "OMG nobody uses Dart, please shut it down". Dart is a great language, I like it. It has consistent typing rules, very fast, has a good IDE. I for one, would like to thank Google for working on it and open sourcing it.

Helianthus 13y ago
One rdtsc does not make a flock :P But I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment in language design. I don't even really have any problem with Angular.dart. We can always use another language that transpiles down to javascript. People are free to use what they want. (Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.) I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web. There's nothing to distinguish it from any other language, and it has to deal with backlash like this.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  > I will, however, drive home the point that Dart cannot out-compete CoffeeScript or TypeScript; How are you driving it home besides just repeating it without any other supporting statements? Saying something 3 times doesn't make it truer. > Dart will not replace javascript and will not be the native language of the web Still don't get why it wouldn't. What is qualitatively different about DartVM vs v8. It could be 2-3 development cycles away from inclusion should Google decide to do it. What exactly code-wise is preventing that to happen? > Unfortunately, my understanding is the dart2js process is horrifically inefficient, but that's no skin off my nose.) Looking at their benchmarks their dart2js is not too far off v8 numbers. Now add types plus a nice IDE and I can see how a larger project might choose instead of JS.
  - Helianthus 13y ago
    There's a bit of a chicken-egg problem with a project choosing Dart, in that Dart has to already be ubiquitous for it to even be an option. What is the pathway for Dart adoption? Google puts it in Chrome. Sure. Dart programmers get to deploy to the Chrome browser, so they do some fun side projects and they run on Chrome only. Fine. Show me how Dart can then move to every browser on every device. Then show me how whatever hypothetical process you came up with doesn't apply to any other language that currently exists. If we're going to put a new runtime in the browser, Dart isn't the only option.