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... I was talking ecosystem niche and I think that obvious. Both languages have to compile to javascript to run in the browser, and it's going to stay that way

... I was talking ecosystem niche and I think that obvious. Both languages have to compile to javascript to run in the browser, and it's going to stay that way. You might not be involved enough in the politics of programmer mindshare, but plainly: Dart is attempting a takeover. Takeovers can be smiles and open source, but they're still takeovers, and this one is doomed to fail. If you don't see that, you're focused on the work in front of you and (again) not on the politics of technology. Which is fine. I'm sure it would be lovely to have a beer with you, and talk languages and compiler design well into the next day's hangover. But if you're going to get involved with a conversation on politics, you should think about Google's goals with Dart and whether they're reasonable or beneficial. General sentiment here? They're neither.

spankalee 13y ago
No one is forcing anyone to use Dart, anymore than people are forced to use CoffeeScript, Haxe or pyjamas. Many engineers at Google want a sane alternative to JavaScript, and we think it'll save thousands of hours of developer time, millions of developer dollars, and also _user_ time and money as they benefit from more stable apps with more features. JavaScript is not going anyway. If developers flock to Dart, presumably we've offered something beneficial to them. I joined the Dart team because I thought is was a worthy and important project that could beneficially impact a very large number of people. I _do_ think about these things, they're quite important to me. The goals of more sane semantics, more optimizable structure, and better toolability and tools are to me, and a lot of other engineers, incredibly reasonable and beneficial. That's actually the entire point of the project is to be more reasonable and beneficial than the alternatives :) If fact, I think I'll use that as my informal Dart tagline: "Dart, reasonable and beneficial!" More seriously, Dart is created by people who think that JS is broken and we need an alternative. I hope you're not claiming that that's really an unreasonable opinion, and that the only reasonable point of view is that JavaScript should always be the only language used to develop web applications. I'm sure reasonable people can disagree about the degree of brokenness of JavaScript, and about different solutions to the problems.
- Helianthus 13y ago
  I'm aware of JS language angst, yes. Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it. You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it if you want, but that won't make Dart more reasonable or beneficial.
  - detst 13y ago
    > reasoning behind it In all of your condescending[1] comments, you have forgotten to actually articulate what your reasoning is. These are as close as you got: Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions Google's overbearing intention is obvious flawed language this one is doomed to fail forced down our throat [1] I'll Identify these on request. They're unwarranted, counter-productive and rude.
    - Helianthus 13y ago
      Oh, why not? I wouldn't mind watching a highlight reel and you seem so gleeful. --- I think my reasoning throughout this page has been more or less articulated, but I suppose I might try for a compact representation. What exactly do you think is going to happen with Dart? Is Google going to add Dart to every Chrome install? Sure, maybe. Will so many developers cry out that Safari and IE will also be forced to implement Dart runtimes? Is every single browser going to run Dart because Dart will have made such a compelling case that it and it alone is preferable to javascript? Why not python? Why not C, Java, Scala? We could be running those languages in browsers just as easily as we might run Dart. Do you think Dart is that amazing? Do you think Dart is just so wonderful that it'll unite the programming world as never before? No. Even Google's pet framework is divided and recoiling. The problem isn't that Dart has to compete with javascript, it's that it has to compete with every other language out there, and it's just not that special. Why Dart? If we're going to be serious about ripping up browsers, why Dart? Now, I maybe should make it more clear: I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment, Dart as a transpiled language, or even Angular.dart. But Google doesn't get to decide the future of the web just because it has a bunch of fancy language designers. Google is trying to shove Dart down our throats, and it's not working, and it's not going to work. Dart will remain a transpiled-to-js language for a time, and then fall off the radar when it's clear that it doesn't transpile to js very well. The alternative is a fantasy.

spankalee 13y ago

No one is forcing anyone to use Dart, anymore than people are forced to use CoffeeScript, Haxe or pyjamas. Many engineers at Google want a sane alternative to JavaScript, and we think it'll save thousands of hours of developer time, millions of developer dollars, and also _user_ time and money as they benefit from more stable apps with more features. JavaScript is not going anyway. If developers flock to Dart, presumably we've offered something beneficial to them. I joined the Dart team because I thought is was a worthy and important project that could beneficially impact a very large number of people. I _do_ think about these things, they're quite important to me. The goals of more sane semantics, more optimizable structure, and better toolability and tools are to me, and a lot of other engineers, incredibly reasonable and beneficial. That's actually the entire point of the project is to be more reasonable and beneficial than the alternatives :) If fact, I think I'll use that as my informal Dart tagline: "Dart, reasonable and beneficial!" More seriously, Dart is created by people who think that JS is broken and we need an alternative. I hope you're not claiming that that's really an unreasonable opinion, and that the only reasonable point of view is that JavaScript should always be the only language used to develop web applications. I'm sure reasonable people can disagree about the degree of brokenness of JavaScript, and about different solutions to the problems.

Helianthus 13y ago
I'm aware of JS language angst, yes. Developers aren't flocking to Dart. Many are resentful of it. You can ignore the resentment and the reasoning behind it if you want, but that won't make Dart more reasonable or beneficial.
- detst 13y ago
  > reasoning behind it In all of your condescending[1] comments, you have forgotten to actually articulate what your reasoning is. These are as close as you got: Dart doesn't have the open, cheerful intentions Google's overbearing intention is obvious flawed language this one is doomed to fail forced down our throat [1] I'll Identify these on request. They're unwarranted, counter-productive and rude.
  - Helianthus 13y ago
    Oh, why not? I wouldn't mind watching a highlight reel and you seem so gleeful. --- I think my reasoning throughout this page has been more or less articulated, but I suppose I might try for a compact representation. What exactly do you think is going to happen with Dart? Is Google going to add Dart to every Chrome install? Sure, maybe. Will so many developers cry out that Safari and IE will also be forced to implement Dart runtimes? Is every single browser going to run Dart because Dart will have made such a compelling case that it and it alone is preferable to javascript? Why not python? Why not C, Java, Scala? We could be running those languages in browsers just as easily as we might run Dart. Do you think Dart is that amazing? Do you think Dart is just so wonderful that it'll unite the programming world as never before? No. Even Google's pet framework is divided and recoiling. The problem isn't that Dart has to compete with javascript, it's that it has to compete with every other language out there, and it's just not that special. Why Dart? If we're going to be serious about ripping up browsers, why Dart? Now, I maybe should make it more clear: I don't have any problem with Dart as an experiment, Dart as a transpiled language, or even Angular.dart. But Google doesn't get to decide the future of the web just because it has a bunch of fancy language designers. Google is trying to shove Dart down our throats, and it's not working, and it's not going to work. Dart will remain a transpiled-to-js language for a time, and then fall off the radar when it's clear that it doesn't transpile to js very well. The alternative is a fantasy.