6 ms·

That actually describes me. I hate dicking around with drivers and the like (though I've heard Ubuntu got better), so I like the unixy OSX quite a lot.

mgkimsal 13y ago
"though I've heard Ubuntu got better" I've heard that about linux every year for the past 14 years, usually from people who've only been using desktop linux for a year or two. Not exclusively, but usually.
- the_hangman 13y ago
  Ubuntu is alright -- the problem with Linux as an OS 'for the people' is that the people find the command line frightening. Putting a pretty UX on top of Linux and making it easier to use just moves users further and further away from 'Linux' and closer and closer to an OS X or Windows, only without the games, hardware compatibility, and enterprise software options.
  - markdown 13y ago
    > closer and closer to an OS X or Windows Which is the best way for an average user to interact with the machine, is it not? The ideal OS would be OS X levels of usable, but built entirely on Free Software. Once such an OS exists, it will draw in users, and the games/hardware-compatibility etc will always follow the users.
- andyroid 13y ago
  And you somehow doubt that to be true, or what is your point?
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    "better" is always subjective, and it's never even been close to my expectations. I don't think most people who've told me "oh, <foo> has gotten a lot better in the last year" even know what the problems are that keep some people away. I think it's largely PR parroting, and a way to seem marginally 'with it' re: linux. "hey yeah, I know ubuntu had some issues in the past, but you should really try it now - it's a lot better!" - just got 2 emails from people in the last week or so asking why I use OSX. I was a desktop/laptop linux user from 2000-2008. That's about 9 years of "oh hey - things are so much better this year". And yet... in 2008 I still had issues trying to have multiple apps access audio at the same time. I still had issues plugging in an external monitor on a laptop (or 2 monitors on a desktop). I grew tired of rickety perlgtk scripts that were marginal wrappers around Xorg config files that never quite ever worked the way I could interpret the man page info. I've used desktop ubuntu distros virtualbox and vmware over the past couple years - things don't seem to have gotten that much better, mostly because the majority of the developers in those ecosystems don't see these things as massive problems to be solved in the first place (indeed, with some, it's a badge of honor that things are still hard to configure). Again, the point is "hey, linux is better on the desktop now", in my experience, comes from people who've never really used it for a long time and had moderate expectations not met. Many people I know that use desktop linux expect it to be subpar for many things, and when it's just 'par' they herald this as a big improvement. That said, I really miss fish from KDE.
    - jebblue 13y ago
      Linux desktop, CentOS, SuSE, Fedora, Ubuntu all have worked fine for me the past 15 years. I have fewer problems than when I have to do something on/with Windows. So either all my machines and all my experiences were really lucky or your post is an elegant troll.
      - redblacktree 13y ago
        We weren't comparing Linux and Windows. I also agree that Linux wins hands-down in that particular matchup (unless you want to game...). The question for me is OSX vs Linux, and for me, OSX is WAY easier, and I get most of the deliciousness of Linux on the command line.
        brdrak 13y ago
        A lot of people do prefer OSX. Between OSX and Windows, I'd choose OSX in a heartbeat because cygwin wasn't so great when I tried it a while back. I did try OSX for a while, and wanted to like it because I can get it for free at work, but I'm so used to Linux that OSX quirks really annoyed me. Things like package management being an aftermarket hack, pain trying to get functional RAID10, Apple changing core functionality between releases breaking my setup, etc. For me, Linux is WAY easier. :-)
        redblacktree 13y ago
        > For me, Linux is WAY easier. :-) A fair point. Thanks for posting. I never really got good at running Linux on the desktop; I gave up each time I tried, due to a sound driver issue or similar. I suppose if I'd stuck with it, I might feel as you do.
      - mgkimsal 13y ago
        nothing trolling about it. https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=120003 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=120003 2011 people having problems with multiple apps trying to use audio at the same time. This is one of the things that drove me away from desktop linux in 2008. 3 years later it still isn't a solved problem. My gut tells me that in 2013, it's still not a solved problem. I've no doubt that some people get it to work for their use cases OK. But the fact that it was, even 2 years ago, enough of a problem that people still encountered it... architecturally, that's a symptom of something really broken. I'm not really interested in learning the ins and outs of modprobe and kernel driver recompiles to try to get sound working as I expect it to - it works the way I expect it to on my macbook, which leaves me time to do other more important stuff.
kevincrane 13y ago
FWIW, Ubuntu works out of the box on my laptop (a 13" Dell Vostro). No tweaking drivers, no BIOS stuff, just installing it as you would with Windows.

mgkimsal 13y ago

"though I've heard Ubuntu got better" I've heard that about linux every year for the past 14 years, usually from people who've only been using desktop linux for a year or two. Not exclusively, but usually.

the_hangman 13y ago
Ubuntu is alright -- the problem with Linux as an OS 'for the people' is that the people find the command line frightening. Putting a pretty UX on top of Linux and making it easier to use just moves users further and further away from 'Linux' and closer and closer to an OS X or Windows, only without the games, hardware compatibility, and enterprise software options.
- markdown 13y ago
  > closer and closer to an OS X or Windows Which is the best way for an average user to interact with the machine, is it not? The ideal OS would be OS X levels of usable, but built entirely on Free Software. Once such an OS exists, it will draw in users, and the games/hardware-compatibility etc will always follow the users.
andyroid 13y ago
And you somehow doubt that to be true, or what is your point?
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  "better" is always subjective, and it's never even been close to my expectations. I don't think most people who've told me "oh, <foo> has gotten a lot better in the last year" even know what the problems are that keep some people away. I think it's largely PR parroting, and a way to seem marginally 'with it' re: linux. "hey yeah, I know ubuntu had some issues in the past, but you should really try it now - it's a lot better!" - just got 2 emails from people in the last week or so asking why I use OSX. I was a desktop/laptop linux user from 2000-2008. That's about 9 years of "oh hey - things are so much better this year". And yet... in 2008 I still had issues trying to have multiple apps access audio at the same time. I still had issues plugging in an external monitor on a laptop (or 2 monitors on a desktop). I grew tired of rickety perlgtk scripts that were marginal wrappers around Xorg config files that never quite ever worked the way I could interpret the man page info. I've used desktop ubuntu distros virtualbox and vmware over the past couple years - things don't seem to have gotten that much better, mostly because the majority of the developers in those ecosystems don't see these things as massive problems to be solved in the first place (indeed, with some, it's a badge of honor that things are still hard to configure). Again, the point is "hey, linux is better on the desktop now", in my experience, comes from people who've never really used it for a long time and had moderate expectations not met. Many people I know that use desktop linux expect it to be subpar for many things, and when it's just 'par' they herald this as a big improvement. That said, I really miss fish from KDE.
  - jebblue 13y ago
    Linux desktop, CentOS, SuSE, Fedora, Ubuntu all have worked fine for me the past 15 years. I have fewer problems than when I have to do something on/with Windows. So either all my machines and all my experiences were really lucky or your post is an elegant troll.
    - redblacktree 13y ago
      We weren't comparing Linux and Windows. I also agree that Linux wins hands-down in that particular matchup (unless you want to game...). The question for me is OSX vs Linux, and for me, OSX is WAY easier, and I get most of the deliciousness of Linux on the command line.
      - brdrak 13y ago
        A lot of people do prefer OSX. Between OSX and Windows, I'd choose OSX in a heartbeat because cygwin wasn't so great when I tried it a while back. I did try OSX for a while, and wanted to like it because I can get it for free at work, but I'm so used to Linux that OSX quirks really annoyed me. Things like package management being an aftermarket hack, pain trying to get functional RAID10, Apple changing core functionality between releases breaking my setup, etc. For me, Linux is WAY easier. :-)
        redblacktree 13y ago
        > For me, Linux is WAY easier. :-) A fair point. Thanks for posting. I never really got good at running Linux on the desktop; I gave up each time I tried, due to a sound driver issue or similar. I suppose if I'd stuck with it, I might feel as you do.
    - mgkimsal 13y ago
      nothing trolling about it. https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=120003 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=120003 2011 people having problems with multiple apps trying to use audio at the same time. This is one of the things that drove me away from desktop linux in 2008. 3 years later it still isn't a solved problem. My gut tells me that in 2013, it's still not a solved problem. I've no doubt that some people get it to work for their use cases OK. But the fact that it was, even 2 years ago, enough of a problem that people still encountered it... architecturally, that's a symptom of something really broken. I'm not really interested in learning the ins and outs of modprobe and kernel driver recompiles to try to get sound working as I expect it to - it works the way I expect it to on my macbook, which leaves me time to do other more important stuff.

kevincrane 13y ago

FWIW, Ubuntu works out of the box on my laptop (a 13" Dell Vostro). No tweaking drivers, no BIOS stuff, just installing it as you would with Windows.