6 ms·

You love open source software, but not enough to use an open source OS

redblacktree 13y ago
That actually describes me. I hate dicking around with drivers and the like (though I've heard Ubuntu got better), so I like the unixy OSX quite a lot.
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  "though I've heard Ubuntu got better" I've heard that about linux every year for the past 14 years, usually from people who've only been using desktop linux for a year or two. Not exclusively, but usually.
  - the_hangman 13y ago
    Ubuntu is alright -- the problem with Linux as an OS 'for the people' is that the people find the command line frightening. Putting a pretty UX on top of Linux and making it easier to use just moves users further and further away from 'Linux' and closer and closer to an OS X or Windows, only without the games, hardware compatibility, and enterprise software options.
    - markdown 13y ago
      > closer and closer to an OS X or Windows Which is the best way for an average user to interact with the machine, is it not? The ideal OS would be OS X levels of usable, but built entirely on Free Software. Once such an OS exists, it will draw in users, and the games/hardware-compatibility etc will always follow the users.
  - andyroid 13y ago
    And you somehow doubt that to be true, or what is your point?
    - mgkimsal 13y ago
      "better" is always subjective, and it's never even been close to my expectations. I don't think most people who've told me "oh, <foo> has gotten a lot better in the last year" even know what the problems are that keep some people away. I think it's largely PR parroting, and a way to seem marginally 'with it' re: linux. "hey yeah, I know ubuntu had some issues in the past, but you should really try it now - it's a lot better!" - just got 2 emails from people in the last week or so asking why I use OSX. I was a desktop/laptop linux user from 2000-2008. That's about 9 years of "oh hey - things are so much better this year". And yet... in 2008 I still had issues trying to have multiple apps access audio at the same time. I still had issues plugging in an external monitor on a laptop (or 2 monitors on a desktop). I grew tired of rickety perlgtk scripts that were marginal wrappers around Xorg config files that never quite ever worked the way I could interpret the man page info. I've used desktop ubuntu distros virtualbox and vmware over the past couple years - things don't seem to have gotten that much better, mostly because the majority of the developers in those ecosystems don't see these things as massive problems to be solved in the first place (indeed, with some, it's a badge of honor that things are still hard to configure). Again, the point is "hey, linux is better on the desktop now", in my experience, comes from people who've never really used it for a long time and had moderate expectations not met. Many people I know that use desktop linux expect it to be subpar for many things, and when it's just 'par' they herald this as a big improvement. That said, I really miss fish from KDE.
      - jebblue 13y ago
        Linux desktop, CentOS, SuSE, Fedora, Ubuntu all have worked fine for me the past 15 years. I have fewer problems than when I have to do something on/with Windows. So either all my machines and all my experiences were really lucky or your post is an elegant troll.
        redblacktree 13y ago
        We weren't comparing Linux and Windows. I also agree that Linux wins hands-down in that particular matchup (unless you want to game...). The question for me is OSX vs Linux, and for me, OSX is WAY easier, and I get most of the deliciousness of Linux on the command line.
- kevincrane 13y ago
  FWIW, Ubuntu works out of the box on my laptop (a 13" Dell Vostro). No tweaking drivers, no BIOS stuff, just installing it as you would with Windows.
Widdershin 13y ago
This is totally me. I spend tons of time bitching about Windows, but I never just up and move to *nix because of some Windows exclusive things I want.
benihana 13y ago
I mean technically OS X is an open source OS with a closed-sourced windowing system built on top of it. I hate myself for posting this comment.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- zimbatm 13y ago
  _Your dark troll side has spoken_. I'm not even sure that that's technically correct, it's probably not possible to get the same kernel by compiling Darwin. I would be surprised if Apple kept pushing new feature into the open source kernel.
  - pmjordan 13y ago
    They do keep adding stuff to the open source portion, but you're right that there's plenty of closed source code running on a stock OS X kernel. This is loaded in as kexts, so the mach_kernel binary itself is open and reproducible. Drivers for anything vaguely recent are all closed, as are any security related things (crypto, firewall, sandbox, quarantine, etc.) and a few other odds and ends. Recompiling the kernel is entirely doable [1] (and occasionally useful for kext development), though running a kernel with literally no proprietary code will be quite a lot of effort. (and various important bits of OSX userspace will cease functioning) [1] I've personally had success with the instructions at http://shantonu.blogspot.com/ http://shantonu.blogspot.com/ - not that Apple has accepted any of my patches...
- ebarock 13y ago
  Nah! You don't need to hate your self, OS X is good and that's it! hehe
lazerwalker 13y ago
The tone of the job posting might be laughable, but those aren't in opposition to each other unless you're demanding Stallman levels of fanaticism.
- davidw 13y ago
  It hardly requires 'Stallman levels of fanaticism' to prefer an OS that you can explore and tinker with, if you're someone who likes to know - or maybe even tweak - how things work under the hood. A "hacker", in other words.
  - lazerwalker 13y ago
    I tinker and play with Linux all the time, on servers and VMs. Saying that "you don't love open source enough to use an open source OS" implies to me that OSS is intrinsically better and preferable to non-OSS, even if a closed-source alternative would be better for your personal needs. That strikes me as fairly dogmatic (although it's very possible I misread the original intent). I personally use OS X as my desktop OS because it suits my needs, despite contributing regularly to open source. I agree completely that there are many non-'fanatical' reasons to prefer Linux as a desktop OS.
lotyrin 13y ago
Isn't this true of a huge number of people, given the state of Desktop Linux? Additionally, many people can't afford to give up having commercial support for their OS as a target for software products (Adobe's in particular, in my experience).
ancarda 13y ago
That actually sums me up quite well. For various reasons, I just don't get along on Linux. It always made me run back to Windows, but I wanted to use open/free software. I eventually settled on OS X as it allowed me to use most of the programs I liked from Linux without having to sacrifice a good desktop environment. To summarize; "I'll use free software but not if it means neglecting superior proprietary software". Obviously to each his own in this matter. Linux is great in some areas but not for user experience or corporate support.

That actually describes me. I hate dicking around with drivers and the like (though I've heard Ubuntu got better), so I like the unixy OSX quite a lot.

mgkimsal 13y ago
"though I've heard Ubuntu got better" I've heard that about linux every year for the past 14 years, usually from people who've only been using desktop linux for a year or two. Not exclusively, but usually.
- the_hangman 13y ago
  Ubuntu is alright -- the problem with Linux as an OS 'for the people' is that the people find the command line frightening. Putting a pretty UX on top of Linux and making it easier to use just moves users further and further away from 'Linux' and closer and closer to an OS X or Windows, only without the games, hardware compatibility, and enterprise software options.
  - markdown 13y ago
    > closer and closer to an OS X or Windows Which is the best way for an average user to interact with the machine, is it not? The ideal OS would be OS X levels of usable, but built entirely on Free Software. Once such an OS exists, it will draw in users, and the games/hardware-compatibility etc will always follow the users.
- andyroid 13y ago
  And you somehow doubt that to be true, or what is your point?
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    "better" is always subjective, and it's never even been close to my expectations. I don't think most people who've told me "oh, <foo> has gotten a lot better in the last year" even know what the problems are that keep some people away. I think it's largely PR parroting, and a way to seem marginally 'with it' re: linux. "hey yeah, I know ubuntu had some issues in the past, but you should really try it now - it's a lot better!" - just got 2 emails from people in the last week or so asking why I use OSX. I was a desktop/laptop linux user from 2000-2008. That's about 9 years of "oh hey - things are so much better this year". And yet... in 2008 I still had issues trying to have multiple apps access audio at the same time. I still had issues plugging in an external monitor on a laptop (or 2 monitors on a desktop). I grew tired of rickety perlgtk scripts that were marginal wrappers around Xorg config files that never quite ever worked the way I could interpret the man page info. I've used desktop ubuntu distros virtualbox and vmware over the past couple years - things don't seem to have gotten that much better, mostly because the majority of the developers in those ecosystems don't see these things as massive problems to be solved in the first place (indeed, with some, it's a badge of honor that things are still hard to configure). Again, the point is "hey, linux is better on the desktop now", in my experience, comes from people who've never really used it for a long time and had moderate expectations not met. Many people I know that use desktop linux expect it to be subpar for many things, and when it's just 'par' they herald this as a big improvement. That said, I really miss fish from KDE.
    - jebblue 13y ago
      Linux desktop, CentOS, SuSE, Fedora, Ubuntu all have worked fine for me the past 15 years. I have fewer problems than when I have to do something on/with Windows. So either all my machines and all my experiences were really lucky or your post is an elegant troll.
      - redblacktree 13y ago
        We weren't comparing Linux and Windows. I also agree that Linux wins hands-down in that particular matchup (unless you want to game...). The question for me is OSX vs Linux, and for me, OSX is WAY easier, and I get most of the deliciousness of Linux on the command line.
kevincrane 13y ago
FWIW, Ubuntu works out of the box on my laptop (a 13" Dell Vostro). No tweaking drivers, no BIOS stuff, just installing it as you would with Windows.

Widdershin 13y ago

This is totally me. I spend tons of time bitching about Windows, but I never just up and move to *nix because of some Windows exclusive things I want.

benihana 13y ago

I mean technically OS X is an open source OS with a closed-sourced windowing system built on top of it. I hate myself for posting this comment.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
zimbatm 13y ago
_Your dark troll side has spoken_. I'm not even sure that that's technically correct, it's probably not possible to get the same kernel by compiling Darwin. I would be surprised if Apple kept pushing new feature into the open source kernel.
- pmjordan 13y ago
  They do keep adding stuff to the open source portion, but you're right that there's plenty of closed source code running on a stock OS X kernel. This is loaded in as kexts, so the mach_kernel binary itself is open and reproducible. Drivers for anything vaguely recent are all closed, as are any security related things (crypto, firewall, sandbox, quarantine, etc.) and a few other odds and ends. Recompiling the kernel is entirely doable [1] (and occasionally useful for kext development), though running a kernel with literally no proprietary code will be quite a lot of effort. (and various important bits of OSX userspace will cease functioning) [1] I've personally had success with the instructions at http://shantonu.blogspot.com/ http://shantonu.blogspot.com/ - not that Apple has accepted any of my patches...
ebarock 13y ago
Nah! You don't need to hate your self, OS X is good and that's it! hehe

lazerwalker 13y ago

The tone of the job posting might be laughable, but those aren't in opposition to each other unless you're demanding Stallman levels of fanaticism.

davidw 13y ago
It hardly requires 'Stallman levels of fanaticism' to prefer an OS that you can explore and tinker with, if you're someone who likes to know - or maybe even tweak - how things work under the hood. A "hacker", in other words.
- lazerwalker 13y ago
  I tinker and play with Linux all the time, on servers and VMs. Saying that "you don't love open source enough to use an open source OS" implies to me that OSS is intrinsically better and preferable to non-OSS, even if a closed-source alternative would be better for your personal needs. That strikes me as fairly dogmatic (although it's very possible I misread the original intent). I personally use OS X as my desktop OS because it suits my needs, despite contributing regularly to open source. I agree completely that there are many non-'fanatical' reasons to prefer Linux as a desktop OS.

lotyrin 13y ago

Isn't this true of a huge number of people, given the state of Desktop Linux? Additionally, many people can't afford to give up having commercial support for their OS as a target for software products (Adobe's in particular, in my experience).

ancarda 13y ago

That actually sums me up quite well. For various reasons, I just don't get along on Linux. It always made me run back to Windows, but I wanted to use open/free software. I eventually settled on OS X as it allowed me to use most of the programs I liked from Linux without having to sacrifice a good desktop environment. To summarize; "I'll use free software but not if it means neglecting superior proprietary software". Obviously to each his own in this matter. Linux is great in some areas but not for user experience or corporate support.