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Sigh... I knew this was going to happen. :-/ This is part of Google's strategy to push Dart in the browser. Soon they're going to start developing Angular prima

Sigh... I knew this was going to happen. :-/ This is part of Google's strategy to push Dart in the browser. Soon they're going to start developing Angular primarily in Dart, and 'back-porting' features to JavaScript. Sadly, this is the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google.

Oculus 13y ago
I imagine they'll give up once they realize all the steam behind AngularJS won't easily transfer over to Dart.
steeve 13y ago
This. Let's pray this doesn't happen.
quest88 13y ago
Luckily if someone feels Angular starts to become neglected someone can fork it and actively contribute. Also, since dart compiles to JS, it could be no back-porting will be necessary.
recuter 13y ago
First of all, this was already announced months ago, so it already happened. Secondly, Google is a big company and some teams within it wanted to use Dart, whereas otheres want to use vanila javascript and Angular, so now you have both. Thirdly, Angular is in the process of being broken apart to modular components for 2.0, it also now cross-pollinates with another Google-y called Web Components. In future, the equivelent of directives (Your own <x-thingy> tags) will be a native web standard, Mozilla is also working on it. This all amounts to a sort of polyfill to the future and most of the core of Angular will be thrown away if things work out. You won't need it. These are all good things. I don't understand your need for FUD.
- nateabele 13y ago
  You're able to regurgitate bullet points off a slide deck. Good job. Edit: [source & details redacted] This 'FUD' comes directly from the Angular core team.
  - pygy_ 13y ago
    You just outed your source. Edit: still too many details.
    - nateabele 13y ago
      Better now? ;-)
      - pygy_ 13y ago
        Yup. I improved mine as well.
  - lclarkmichalek 13y ago
    That his points come from a specific source doesn't actually make him incorrect.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    You are able to spread hate and FUD as well. Good job.
- Touche 13y ago
  > Secondly, Google is a big company and some teams within it wanted to use Dart, whereas otheres want to use vanila javascript and Angular, so now you have both. Specifically who?
  - kyrra 13y ago
    A number of the members of the Chrome team. If you watch the announcement from when Blink hit, they did some developer talks. When asked about the integration of Dart into Chrome, it was fairly obvious that some of the guys didn't want Dart in there [0]. But at the same time, a high-level direction is being set to try and get Dart added. Google employs a LOT of developers. A lot of those developers feel the same way members of HN does, that we don't need a language to replace javascript. Google is using their weight in the web world to try and get a new/alternative language added. As long as Dart isn't completely shoved down our throats, I'm willing to give it a try. I think there is enough opposition within Google to make sure that Dart will at least have to live in peaceful co-existence with Javascript. Google is pretty realistic that it'll be many more years before they can even have a chance of getting other browsers to add the DartVM. Heck, Chrome doesn't have it yet (outside of the Dartium build which has some fun memory leaks). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlJob8K_OwE&t=17m26s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlJob8K_OwE&t=17m26s
    - detst 13y ago
      > it was fairly obvious that some of the guys didn't want Dart in there I don't think it was obvious. It may be true but they were uncontroversial comments on a controversial topic. The language and DartVM aren't ready for Chrome, right now. You'd hear the same from the Dart team. > we don't need a language to replace javascript Absolutely... in the same way we didn't need Python, Ruby, C++, Java, Clojure, Haskell, etc. In fact, I'd say we needed those less considering the enormous choice on non-web platforms.
    - numbsafari 13y ago
      Google can have Dart if Microsoft can have VBScript back. j/k. I doubt even Microsoft would want to bring that abomination back. Or would they??
btian 13y ago
Well Dart can be compiled to JavaScript. What's not open source about Dart or Angular?
- Bahamut 13y ago
  It may be open source, but it makes it more difficult to work with existing js libraries, and shoehorns you into a particular environment that is not standard frontend (html, css, js). Sure, Dart may compile down to js, but that adds another layer to a build process, and increases complexity unnecessarily. As a fairly knowledgeable user of Angular & sometime contributor, this is a disturbing rumor.
  - spankalee 13y ago
    The dart:js library makes it quite easy to work with existing JS libraries. Most of the teams using Dart at Google are also using some Js in their apps. Dart encourages a very standard frontend: HTML, CSS and JavaScript, so I don't get that point. Dart compiles to JS like Haxe, TypeScript, ClojureScript, CoffeeScript, etc. I'm not sure what "rumor" you're referring to. AngularDart is a thing and it reached beta today. That's not a rumor. AngularJS 1.2 is due out soon, and AngularJS 2.0 will be heavily influenced by the work done on AngularDart to modularize and use more web standards. That's also not a rumor.
    - Bahamut 13y ago
      Read the first comment in this whole chain that you've replied to. That is the rumor that is the subject to much scrutiny.
spankalee 13y ago
I work at Google and on Dart, and I have worked with the Angular team on their Dart port. This is not part of any strategy to push Dart. This port exists because teams at Google want to use both Angular and Dart, and the Angular team decided to make it happen.
golergka 13y ago
> the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google I don't understand why did you put "Open Source" in quotes there. Did Google take Angular of the internet? Did they not put AngularJS out to the world, open sourced? Did they forbid you from forking Angular, working on it, and create a refuge for all "abandoned" developers?
rdtsc 13y ago
> Sigh... I knew this was going to happen. :-/ Yay... I was hoping this would happen :-) > This is part of Google's strategy to push Dart in the browser. I know, great, right. > Sadly, this is the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google. I criticize Google often but yeah this is great. Good for Google. It is more than what Oracle or Microsoft or others do. My opinion is this -- JS is a shitty language. It was a shitty language, no matter how many "good parts" books will be published or how many frameworks one builds on top of it -- it is still an ugly language that makes me want to tear my hair out every time I use it. You love it, great. I hate it. I was hoping from day one someone, some company, would find a good replacement. I can tolerate compiling to it and treating it like assembler. It is even better if it gets bypassed altogether. There were other posts here about JS's warts, so I am not the only one who welcome any other sane, normal, language to replace it. Anyway, great work Google, keep releasing new versions of Dart, Dart UI, Dart IDE and so on.
- pcwalton 13y ago
  > It is even better if it gets bypassed altogether. That won't happen. With the amount of JavaScript on the Web, JS is immortal. All you can do is to add another language alongside it. > There were other posts here about JS's warts, so I am not the only one who welcome any other sane, normal, language to replace it. But it won't be replaced.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    You are right it would run alongside it. One thing that would help is a couple of killer websites or applications that would do something much better than the rest. If it used Dart and ran on the latest Chrome, that would help its adoption. It would help Google too because it would increase Chrome install instances running.
ahoge 13y ago
> Sadly, this is the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google. What's up with those scare quotes? Angular is open source (MIT), not "open source".

Oculus 13y ago

I imagine they'll give up once they realize all the steam behind AngularJS won't easily transfer over to Dart.

steeve 13y ago

This. Let's pray this doesn't happen.

quest88 13y ago

Luckily if someone feels Angular starts to become neglected someone can fork it and actively contribute. Also, since dart compiles to JS, it could be no back-porting will be necessary.

recuter 13y ago

First of all, this was already announced months ago, so it already happened. Secondly, Google is a big company and some teams within it wanted to use Dart, whereas otheres want to use vanila javascript and Angular, so now you have both. Thirdly, Angular is in the process of being broken apart to modular components for 2.0, it also now cross-pollinates with another Google-y called Web Components. In future, the equivelent of directives (Your own <x-thingy> tags) will be a native web standard, Mozilla is also working on it. This all amounts to a sort of polyfill to the future and most of the core of Angular will be thrown away if things work out. You won't need it. These are all good things. I don't understand your need for FUD.

nateabele 13y ago
You're able to regurgitate bullet points off a slide deck. Good job. Edit: [source & details redacted] This 'FUD' comes directly from the Angular core team.
- pygy_ 13y ago
  You just outed your source. Edit: still too many details.
  - nateabele 13y ago
    Better now? ;-)
    - pygy_ 13y ago
      Yup. I improved mine as well.
- lclarkmichalek 13y ago
  That his points come from a specific source doesn't actually make him incorrect.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  You are able to spread hate and FUD as well. Good job.
Touche 13y ago
> Secondly, Google is a big company and some teams within it wanted to use Dart, whereas otheres want to use vanila javascript and Angular, so now you have both. Specifically who?
- kyrra 13y ago
  A number of the members of the Chrome team. If you watch the announcement from when Blink hit, they did some developer talks. When asked about the integration of Dart into Chrome, it was fairly obvious that some of the guys didn't want Dart in there [0]. But at the same time, a high-level direction is being set to try and get Dart added. Google employs a LOT of developers. A lot of those developers feel the same way members of HN does, that we don't need a language to replace javascript. Google is using their weight in the web world to try and get a new/alternative language added. As long as Dart isn't completely shoved down our throats, I'm willing to give it a try. I think there is enough opposition within Google to make sure that Dart will at least have to live in peaceful co-existence with Javascript. Google is pretty realistic that it'll be many more years before they can even have a chance of getting other browsers to add the DartVM. Heck, Chrome doesn't have it yet (outside of the Dartium build which has some fun memory leaks). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlJob8K_OwE&t=17m26s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlJob8K_OwE&t=17m26s
  - detst 13y ago
    > it was fairly obvious that some of the guys didn't want Dart in there I don't think it was obvious. It may be true but they were uncontroversial comments on a controversial topic. The language and DartVM aren't ready for Chrome, right now. You'd hear the same from the Dart team. > we don't need a language to replace javascript Absolutely... in the same way we didn't need Python, Ruby, C++, Java, Clojure, Haskell, etc. In fact, I'd say we needed those less considering the enormous choice on non-web platforms.
  - numbsafari 13y ago
    Google can have Dart if Microsoft can have VBScript back. j/k. I doubt even Microsoft would want to bring that abomination back. Or would they??

btian 13y ago

Well Dart can be compiled to JavaScript. What's not open source about Dart or Angular?

Bahamut 13y ago
It may be open source, but it makes it more difficult to work with existing js libraries, and shoehorns you into a particular environment that is not standard frontend (html, css, js). Sure, Dart may compile down to js, but that adds another layer to a build process, and increases complexity unnecessarily. As a fairly knowledgeable user of Angular & sometime contributor, this is a disturbing rumor.
- spankalee 13y ago
  The dart:js library makes it quite easy to work with existing JS libraries. Most of the teams using Dart at Google are also using some Js in their apps. Dart encourages a very standard frontend: HTML, CSS and JavaScript, so I don't get that point. Dart compiles to JS like Haxe, TypeScript, ClojureScript, CoffeeScript, etc. I'm not sure what "rumor" you're referring to. AngularDart is a thing and it reached beta today. That's not a rumor. AngularJS 1.2 is due out soon, and AngularJS 2.0 will be heavily influenced by the work done on AngularDart to modularize and use more web standards. That's also not a rumor.
  - Bahamut 13y ago
    Read the first comment in this whole chain that you've replied to. That is the rumor that is the subject to much scrutiny.

spankalee 13y ago

I work at Google and on Dart, and I have worked with the Angular team on their Dart port. This is not part of any strategy to push Dart. This port exists because teams at Google want to use both Angular and Dart, and the Angular team decided to make it happen.

golergka 13y ago

> the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google I don't understand why did you put "Open Source" in quotes there. Did Google take Angular of the internet? Did they not put AngularJS out to the world, open sourced? Did they forbid you from forking Angular, working on it, and create a refuge for all "abandoned" developers?

rdtsc 13y ago

> Sigh... I knew this was going to happen. :-/ Yay... I was hoping this would happen :-) > This is part of Google's strategy to push Dart in the browser. I know, great, right. > Sadly, this is the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google. I criticize Google often but yeah this is great. Good for Google. It is more than what Oracle or Microsoft or others do. My opinion is this -- JS is a shitty language. It was a shitty language, no matter how many "good parts" books will be published or how many frameworks one builds on top of it -- it is still an ugly language that makes me want to tear my hair out every time I use it. You love it, great. I hate it. I was hoping from day one someone, some company, would find a good replacement. I can tolerate compiling to it and treating it like assembler. It is even better if it gets bypassed altogether. There were other posts here about JS's warts, so I am not the only one who welcome any other sane, normal, language to replace it. Anyway, great work Google, keep releasing new versions of Dart, Dart UI, Dart IDE and so on.

pcwalton 13y ago
> It is even better if it gets bypassed altogether. That won't happen. With the amount of JavaScript on the Web, JS is immortal. All you can do is to add another language alongside it. > There were other posts here about JS's warts, so I am not the only one who welcome any other sane, normal, language to replace it. But it won't be replaced.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  You are right it would run alongside it. One thing that would help is a couple of killer websites or applications that would do something much better than the rest. If it used Dart and ran on the latest Chrome, that would help its adoption. It would help Google too because it would increase Chrome install instances running.

ahoge 13y ago

> Sadly, this is the nature of so-called "Open Source" at Google. What's up with those scare quotes? Angular is open source (MIT), not "open source".