4 ms·

Exactly. I remember, once a friend wanted to create a tool for designers to use for creating HTML+CSS visually, without having to know actual CSS properties and

by gmjoe 13y ago

Exactly. I remember, once a friend wanted to create a tool for designers to use for creating HTML+CSS visually, without having to know actual CSS properties and such. Then I explained, the hard part of laying out webpages is not the basic layout -- it's how layout reflows when text overflows, when the browser window is too narrow, when image sizes change, what things maintain alignment and what things don't -- and that by the time you've added all these options to your visual tool, the visual tool is now equally complicated as CSS, so you've defeated the whole purpose. At its heart, it's the fact that the specification of the program is the program. The devil is always in the details. (Which, incidentally, is why it's so hard to estimate development time accurately.)

bluesnowmonkey 13y ago
It's a good thing you talked your friend down from creating something. The world has too many creators as it is. Don't they know that everything good has been created already? If it hasn't been done then it isn't possible!
- resu_nimda 13y ago
  Did you have a point here? Do you think he should have just said "sure man, sounds great, go for it!" Did you know that a lot of non-programmers have a lot of great ideas, and that educating them about the difficulties of implementing those ideas isn't actually a bad thing? The particular app in question has been tried a million times and countless hours have been invested into it, perhaps learning from that body of work would be helpful? But hey, maybe that guy is The One who will come out of nowhere and solve the problem in a completely new manner (half-serious - it's technically possible, but I don't think it's useful to put our eggs in that basket).
  - jcoder 13y ago
    > Do you think he should have just said "sure man, sounds great, go for it!" His friend would have made a lot of personal progress in their understanding and abilities.
    - rwallace 13y ago
      Learning from your own mistakes is effective, but not efficient. Sometimes it's the best you can do, but when you can learn from other people's mistakes instead, that's a lot better.
  - bluesnowmonkey 13y ago
    Yes! Those exact words. "Sure man, sounds great, go for it!" General rule of thumb, if your friend wants to achieve something, help them do it. Don't sit there telling them why they're going to fail. It almost doesn't matter what it is. They want to start a business, be a brain surgeon, jump the grand canyon on a motorcycle, whatever, believe in them and help them succeed. If you don't believe in them, what kind of friend are you really? I do believe that there is an amazing HTML/CSS design tool waiting to be created. I don't know what it is, and I don't know if that guy would have been the one to create it, but I love to see people try. He probably would have learned a lot even if he failed. That negative attitude just really gets my goat in real life. There's one guy at work on whom I can count to shit all over any idea I bring him. There's another guy who always gets excited about trying new things. Guess which one I would happily give a recommendation, and which one I wouldn't care if he fell out a third story window?
alexnorth 13y ago
But we have some such better tools! E.g. Chrome's developer tools let you edit CSS properties and the document structure live, seeing results instantly. It's fantastically more efficient that coding and refreshing the page. Tools that better match the problem domain matter so much precisely because of the domain complexities like overflowing and arbitrary data. It's a small step. I can easily imagine bigger ones.
svantana 13y ago
But that doesn't mean we need to reinvent the wheel every single time. Now look at something like Macaw and tell me that doesn't look like a useful tool: http://macaw.co/peek/ http://macaw.co/peek/
dsego 13y ago
The idea is to build a tool that better fits the problem domain. In this example a visual tool lifts the burden of remembering specific CSS syntax, HEX codes or browser inconsistencies. In turn it's easier for a designer to worry about more interesting stuff, like reflows or responsive layouts. I have great hopes for visual web tools, such as Macaw. I think it will really take off when we get reusable HTML/JS components.

by gmjoe 13y ago

bluesnowmonkey 13y ago

It's a good thing you talked your friend down from creating something. The world has too many creators as it is. Don't they know that everything good has been created already? If it hasn't been done then it isn't possible!

resu_nimda 13y ago
Did you have a point here? Do you think he should have just said "sure man, sounds great, go for it!" Did you know that a lot of non-programmers have a lot of great ideas, and that educating them about the difficulties of implementing those ideas isn't actually a bad thing? The particular app in question has been tried a million times and countless hours have been invested into it, perhaps learning from that body of work would be helpful? But hey, maybe that guy is The One who will come out of nowhere and solve the problem in a completely new manner (half-serious - it's technically possible, but I don't think it's useful to put our eggs in that basket).
- jcoder 13y ago
  > Do you think he should have just said "sure man, sounds great, go for it!" His friend would have made a lot of personal progress in their understanding and abilities.
  - rwallace 13y ago
    Learning from your own mistakes is effective, but not efficient. Sometimes it's the best you can do, but when you can learn from other people's mistakes instead, that's a lot better.
- bluesnowmonkey 13y ago
  Yes! Those exact words. "Sure man, sounds great, go for it!" General rule of thumb, if your friend wants to achieve something, help them do it. Don't sit there telling them why they're going to fail. It almost doesn't matter what it is. They want to start a business, be a brain surgeon, jump the grand canyon on a motorcycle, whatever, believe in them and help them succeed. If you don't believe in them, what kind of friend are you really? I do believe that there is an amazing HTML/CSS design tool waiting to be created. I don't know what it is, and I don't know if that guy would have been the one to create it, but I love to see people try. He probably would have learned a lot even if he failed. That negative attitude just really gets my goat in real life. There's one guy at work on whom I can count to shit all over any idea I bring him. There's another guy who always gets excited about trying new things. Guess which one I would happily give a recommendation, and which one I wouldn't care if he fell out a third story window?

alexnorth 13y ago

But we have some such better tools! E.g. Chrome's developer tools let you edit CSS properties and the document structure live, seeing results instantly. It's fantastically more efficient that coding and refreshing the page. Tools that better match the problem domain matter so much precisely because of the domain complexities like overflowing and arbitrary data. It's a small step. I can easily imagine bigger ones.

svantana 13y ago

But that doesn't mean we need to reinvent the wheel every single time. Now look at something like Macaw and tell me that doesn't look like a useful tool: http://macaw.co/peek/ http://macaw.co/peek/

dsego 13y ago

The idea is to build a tool that better fits the problem domain. In this example a visual tool lifts the burden of remembering specific CSS syntax, HEX codes or browser inconsistencies. In turn it's easier for a designer to worry about more interesting stuff, like reflows or responsive layouts. I have great hopes for visual web tools, such as Macaw. I think it will really take off when we get reusable HTML/JS components.