6 ms·

DIY prosthetics. This is awesome and cheaper. It's strange that some home made products are cheaper than their industrialized counterparts.

by fsniper 13y ago

TomSawyer 13y ago
I'm guessing dad didn't pass this by the FDA and he's not protecting himself from his son suing him if everything related to the device doesn't turn out near perfect.
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  Well, that's a major win, then.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - kitd 13y ago
    That's the point. He doesn't have to. He just says, "Dad, this bit broke. Can you redo it?" The commercial product has to be fully licensed and tested to the n-th degree, which greatly adds to the cost.
    - jader201 13y ago
      Got it, I misinterpreted it, and humbly retract my statement.
  - cantankerous 13y ago
    S/he is pointing out that part of the reason mainline prosthetics are so expensive is because of the legal and regulatory costs that come with getting them approved for market.
- lignuist 13y ago
  Yeah, I am always happy to pay for defense against myself.
dspillett 13y ago
Not strange at all. Industrially made counterparts will have layer upon layer of strength, safety, and reliability requirements set down by law and the maker's liability insurer. While for this sort of prosthetic is non-invasive so the human trial requirements will be a lot more slack than those that are, I also expect that a commercial of academic researcher will have more hassle arranging an ideal guinea pig or few (and testing requirements will include not just using a single subject). To mass produce this, or even just to design it with mass production for general use in mind, there are many reasons why this would be much more expensive commercially. For small runs it wouldn't be commercially viable at all. In this case I'm not surprised that an intelligent and committed amateur with a vested interest (his son) managed to produce something impressive for very little $ cost, where a non-DIY approach would be massively more expensive. Now he needs to make sure his design and process are properly registered so if someone makes millions from it he can have a cut (I'm sure he wouldn't mind individuals making them not-for-$, but a commercial entity making money after having him short-cut their design process would owe him a something).
- fsniper 13y ago
  Yes I know all this regulations, testing, security measure etc, etc.. I'm a bit wondering, in this kinds of regulated and dangerous (at least to the producer via lawsuits), how much quantity of production and consuming would start to beat DIY efficient pricing?
  - hnriot 13y ago
    "es I know all this regulations, testing, security measure etc, etc.." - then why did you think it strange that a DIY project would be cheaper? quantity assumes mass production and I doubt that would apply to something as specialized as human prosthetics.
diydsp 13y ago
http://openprosthetics.org/ http://openprosthetics.org/ (Since 2006).
Shivetya 13y ago
i am curious if 3d printing is up to the task of creating legs? There is a lot more stress on the leg replacements than a hand. One area of price difference is, you don't have to go through safety checks or other regulations. Top that off by not having the built in costs against lawsuits. Coworkers husband needs a new leg every very years because even the best ones don't last and the mounting area/pads have to occasionally be changed as he changes
robomartin 13y ago
Well, the truth of it is this hand did not cost $1,000 or $2,000. In other words, if you started from not having an initial design and iterated through the many designs leading up to the latest the picture is quite different. Add-up engineering costs at a reasonable rate and the total cost of executing a design --even for a diy case-- is significantly higher. Once you get to a commercial enterprise things are quite different. Even a small-is company is likely to have 5 to 20 employees, rent, equipment, computers, software and other variable and fixed costs. In addition to that they need to provide sales and post-sales support and stand behind their product for many years. Prototyping and testing alone could easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per iteration. Product Design and Development [0] is a fantastic book that provides insight into the development process for a wide range of products. I have a 1995 edition. It goes from a screwdriver through to engine parts and the mechanical trackball on Apple's old laptops. If you've never been exposed to professional product development and are interested in learning more I'd recommend picking up an older version of this book ($200 for the latest version). [0] http://www.amazon.com/Product-Design-Development-Karl-Ulrich/dp/0073404772/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383582021&sr=1-1&keywords=Product+design+and+development http://www.amazon.com/Product-Design-Development-Karl-Ulrich...
noonespecial 13y ago
Thanks to liability laws and approval processes, many industrial products suffer from the "perfect or nothing" fallacy. The product either has to be perfect or its just better not to produce it at all(1). Being able to do things for themselves allows people to get around this barrier. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. (1)Government in general often suffers mightily from this: A homeless shelter in my parents home town had to close because they couldn't afford the elevator and ramps to become handicap accessible to maintain their occupancy permits. Now the people just sleep on the street outside.
- rayiner 13y ago
  Your footnote misses the point. This sort of thing does happen, but not because people would want "perfect or nothing." It happens because people want to close down the homeless shelter.
  - dmix 13y ago
    > people want to close down the homeless shelter. You need to study some Kafka "The Trial" to understand how extreme bureaucracy functions. There's no subversive logic to the irrationality of most of these institutions. It's mostly just apathetic failure.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      You don't need to read books to get the gist of local politics. Peoples' motivations are simple and plain on the surface. Nobody is sitting around going "my god, we have no choice but to close this homeless shelter. Cursed ADA regulations!"
    - Loughla 13y ago
      You need to study some real life, and not fiction, to understand that for the irrationality of any bureaucracy is only set into motion by players in the real world, with motives of some fashion, good, bad or indifferent. Bureaucracy and its many, many processes are the symptom, not the disease.

DIY prosthetics. This is awesome and cheaper. It's strange that some home made products are cheaper than their industrialized counterparts.

by fsniper 13y ago

DIY prosthetics. This is awesome and cheaper. It's strange that some home made products are cheaper than their industrialized counterparts.

TomSawyer 13y ago

I'm guessing dad didn't pass this by the FDA and he's not protecting himself from his son suing him if everything related to the device doesn't turn out near perfect.

nsxwolf 13y ago
Well, that's a major win, then.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- kitd 13y ago
  That's the point. He doesn't have to. He just says, "Dad, this bit broke. Can you redo it?" The commercial product has to be fully licensed and tested to the n-th degree, which greatly adds to the cost.
  - jader201 13y ago
    Got it, I misinterpreted it, and humbly retract my statement.
- cantankerous 13y ago
  S/he is pointing out that part of the reason mainline prosthetics are so expensive is because of the legal and regulatory costs that come with getting them approved for market.
lignuist 13y ago
Yeah, I am always happy to pay for defense against myself.

dspillett 13y ago

Not strange at all. Industrially made counterparts will have layer upon layer of strength, safety, and reliability requirements set down by law and the maker's liability insurer. While for this sort of prosthetic is non-invasive so the human trial requirements will be a lot more slack than those that are, I also expect that a commercial of academic researcher will have more hassle arranging an ideal guinea pig or few (and testing requirements will include not just using a single subject). To mass produce this, or even just to design it with mass production for general use in mind, there are many reasons why this would be much more expensive commercially. For small runs it wouldn't be commercially viable at all. In this case I'm not surprised that an intelligent and committed amateur with a vested interest (his son) managed to produce something impressive for very little $ cost, where a non-DIY approach would be massively more expensive. Now he needs to make sure his design and process are properly registered so if someone makes millions from it he can have a cut (I'm sure he wouldn't mind individuals making them not-for-$, but a commercial entity making money after having him short-cut their design process would owe him a something).

fsniper 13y ago
Yes I know all this regulations, testing, security measure etc, etc.. I'm a bit wondering, in this kinds of regulated and dangerous (at least to the producer via lawsuits), how much quantity of production and consuming would start to beat DIY efficient pricing?
- hnriot 13y ago
  "es I know all this regulations, testing, security measure etc, etc.." - then why did you think it strange that a DIY project would be cheaper? quantity assumes mass production and I doubt that would apply to something as specialized as human prosthetics.

diydsp 13y ago

http://openprosthetics.org/ http://openprosthetics.org/ (Since 2006).

Shivetya 13y ago

i am curious if 3d printing is up to the task of creating legs? There is a lot more stress on the leg replacements than a hand. One area of price difference is, you don't have to go through safety checks or other regulations. Top that off by not having the built in costs against lawsuits. Coworkers husband needs a new leg every very years because even the best ones don't last and the mounting area/pads have to occasionally be changed as he changes

robomartin 13y ago

Well, the truth of it is this hand did not cost $1,000 or $2,000. In other words, if you started from not having an initial design and iterated through the many designs leading up to the latest the picture is quite different. Add-up engineering costs at a reasonable rate and the total cost of executing a design --even for a diy case-- is significantly higher. Once you get to a commercial enterprise things are quite different. Even a small-is company is likely to have 5 to 20 employees, rent, equipment, computers, software and other variable and fixed costs. In addition to that they need to provide sales and post-sales support and stand behind their product for many years. Prototyping and testing alone could easily cost hundreds of thousands of dollars per iteration. Product Design and Development [0] is a fantastic book that provides insight into the development process for a wide range of products. I have a 1995 edition. It goes from a screwdriver through to engine parts and the mechanical trackball on Apple's old laptops. If you've never been exposed to professional product development and are interested in learning more I'd recommend picking up an older version of this book ($200 for the latest version). [0] http://www.amazon.com/Product-Design-Development-Karl-Ulrich/dp/0073404772/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1383582021&sr=1-1&keywords=Product+design+and+development http://www.amazon.com/Product-Design-Development-Karl-Ulrich...

noonespecial 13y ago

Thanks to liability laws and approval processes, many industrial products suffer from the "perfect or nothing" fallacy. The product either has to be perfect or its just better not to produce it at all(1). Being able to do things for themselves allows people to get around this barrier. Perfect is the enemy of good enough. (1)Government in general often suffers mightily from this: A homeless shelter in my parents home town had to close because they couldn't afford the elevator and ramps to become handicap accessible to maintain their occupancy permits. Now the people just sleep on the street outside.

rayiner 13y ago
Your footnote misses the point. This sort of thing does happen, but not because people would want "perfect or nothing." It happens because people want to close down the homeless shelter.
- dmix 13y ago
  > people want to close down the homeless shelter. You need to study some Kafka "The Trial" to understand how extreme bureaucracy functions. There's no subversive logic to the irrationality of most of these institutions. It's mostly just apathetic failure.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    You don't need to read books to get the gist of local politics. Peoples' motivations are simple and plain on the surface. Nobody is sitting around going "my god, we have no choice but to close this homeless shelter. Cursed ADA regulations!"
  - Loughla 13y ago
    You need to study some real life, and not fiction, to understand that for the irrationality of any bureaucracy is only set into motion by players in the real world, with motives of some fashion, good, bad or indifferent. Bureaucracy and its many, many processes are the symptom, not the disease.