4 ms·

If people are modding their phone by loading a new kernel as well as the modified file system, they won't have a problem. So for people with unlocked bootload

by tytso 13y ago

If people are modding their phone by loading a new kernel as well as the modified file system, they won't have a problem. So for people with unlocked bootloaders, this isn't a problem; and if a handset doesn't allow the bootloader to be unlocked, refuse to buy it! There are plenty of perfectly good (and in my opinion, superior) choices out there which allow for the bootloader to be unlocked. All of the Nexus devices, for example.... There is another advantage of using a locked down file system --- you may not be able to use a rootkit to break root and then modify the file system, but some unfriendly adversary, such as the FBI or the NSA, won't be able to do it to your phone without your knowledge, either. I would think that's worth the inconvenience of making sure you buy a phone with an unlockable bootloader. (Since unlocking the phone requires a wipe of the disk, you don't have to worry about the FBI/NSA doing this to access your data on the phone without your knowledge.)

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
sz4kerto 13y ago
> the FBI or the NSA, won't be able to do it Well, yeah, right.
csoghoian 13y ago
Why wouldn't the FBI or NSA just demand the encryption keys and then sign their malware?
acjohnson55 13y ago
Assuming they're not already tappping the data centers where your private info is stored and that they haven't already had their rootkit baked into the system upfront.
jaegerpicker 13y ago
The nexus devices do not support verzion's lte network, so in the end you are left paying 650-900 for a developer version. That's fine for me, I'm a mobile developer but not many who aren't directly making money off of the device would be willing to make the same choice.
- naner 13y ago
  you are left paying 650-900 for a developer version The Nexus 5 is $350-$400. The Nexus 4 was even cheaper. I got mine for $200 when the sold off their remaining inventory. Also most of us don't need Verizon.
  - cma 13y ago
    He means to get 4g on Verizon w an unlocked boot loader you end up paying for the dev edition.
    - naner 13y ago
      Thanks for clarification, I was pretty puzzled.
    - thinkmassive 13y ago
      That's incorrect though. The Verizon Galaxy Nexus has an unlocked bootloader and works fine on their LTE network.
  - jaegerpicker 13y ago
    Right but the Nexus 5 does not support Verizon's 4g network. Verizon coverage is much better in the Northeast USA (where I live), so much that even if I wanted to switch to T-Mobile (or god forbid AT&T) I doubt I could.
    - ibrahima 13y ago
      It actually does support at least one of the bands that Verizon uses for LTE. There's a small chance that, like the Nexus 7 LTE, if you insert an already activated SIM card it might just work for LTE.
- thinkmassive 13y ago
  I've been using a subsidized Galaxy Nexus with LTE on Verizon's network for two years, so I'm not sure where you came up with that claim but it's wrong.
bitwize 13y ago
There is another advantage of using a locked down file system --- you may not be able to use a rootkit to break root and then modify the file system, but some unfriendly adversary, such as the FBI or the NSA, won't be able to do it to your phone without your knowledge, either. There's always the baseband. The baseband lives on its own cpu and often shares RAM with the "main" cpu. It runs closed-source, proprietary firmware that has unknown security bugs, exploits, and backdoors. It's reasonable to assume that anyone within reach of your cellphone tower has root to your device, and the NSA and LE almost certainly do. The mobsters John Ardito and Peter Peluso were caught when the FBI turned on their cellphones using the baseband and used them as microphones to pick up nearby conversations.
ikonst 13y ago
Forensic tools used by law enforcement and intelligence organisations don't modify the system partition; in fact, modifying anything on the phone is highly undesirable, from a forensics point of view. Re needing to wipe the disk: 1) Modern Android has 'adb backup' so if your phone is not locked, someone who got ahold of your phone can use it to dump your data from a non-rooted phone. 2) Law enforcement and intelligence organisations may or may not have tools to dump your data directly off a (desoldered) flash memory chip. You need to enable disk encryption (* ) to protect against this. (* ) I'm assuming a disk encryption that's not rigged, i.e. has no key escrow available to law enforcement.
- aray 13y ago
  If your phone is not locked, and it's physically compromised, then you're hosed already. If this is something you care about, you probably should lock your phone, and keep it physically secure. If your phone is locked, and there aren't any available root exploits for the system (why is why I'd agree with tytso about getting an unlockable phone -- less incentive for the community to collaborate on what are essentially weaponizeable root exploits) then a physical compromise that installs a persistent rootkit must wipe the device beforehand. (Which gets rid of your data, and is easily noticeable)
  - ikonst 13y ago
    Oh, you're talking about persistent rootkit. I was talking about making a one-off backup of your phone, then returning it to your shelf.

by tytso 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

sz4kerto 13y ago

> the FBI or the NSA, won't be able to do it Well, yeah, right.

csoghoian 13y ago

Why wouldn't the FBI or NSA just demand the encryption keys and then sign their malware?

acjohnson55 13y ago

Assuming they're not already tappping the data centers where your private info is stored and that they haven't already had their rootkit baked into the system upfront.

jaegerpicker 13y ago

The nexus devices do not support verzion's lte network, so in the end you are left paying 650-900 for a developer version. That's fine for me, I'm a mobile developer but not many who aren't directly making money off of the device would be willing to make the same choice.

naner 13y ago
you are left paying 650-900 for a developer version The Nexus 5 is $350-$400. The Nexus 4 was even cheaper. I got mine for $200 when the sold off their remaining inventory. Also most of us don't need Verizon.
- cma 13y ago
  He means to get 4g on Verizon w an unlocked boot loader you end up paying for the dev edition.
  - naner 13y ago
    Thanks for clarification, I was pretty puzzled.
  - thinkmassive 13y ago
    That's incorrect though. The Verizon Galaxy Nexus has an unlocked bootloader and works fine on their LTE network.
- jaegerpicker 13y ago
  Right but the Nexus 5 does not support Verizon's 4g network. Verizon coverage is much better in the Northeast USA (where I live), so much that even if I wanted to switch to T-Mobile (or god forbid AT&T) I doubt I could.
  - ibrahima 13y ago
    It actually does support at least one of the bands that Verizon uses for LTE. There's a small chance that, like the Nexus 7 LTE, if you insert an already activated SIM card it might just work for LTE.
thinkmassive 13y ago
I've been using a subsidized Galaxy Nexus with LTE on Verizon's network for two years, so I'm not sure where you came up with that claim but it's wrong.

bitwize 13y ago

There is another advantage of using a locked down file system --- you may not be able to use a rootkit to break root and then modify the file system, but some unfriendly adversary, such as the FBI or the NSA, won't be able to do it to your phone without your knowledge, either. There's always the baseband. The baseband lives on its own cpu and often shares RAM with the "main" cpu. It runs closed-source, proprietary firmware that has unknown security bugs, exploits, and backdoors. It's reasonable to assume that anyone within reach of your cellphone tower has root to your device, and the NSA and LE almost certainly do. The mobsters John Ardito and Peter Peluso were caught when the FBI turned on their cellphones using the baseband and used them as microphones to pick up nearby conversations.

ikonst 13y ago

Forensic tools used by law enforcement and intelligence organisations don't modify the system partition; in fact, modifying anything on the phone is highly undesirable, from a forensics point of view. Re needing to wipe the disk: 1) Modern Android has 'adb backup' so if your phone is not locked, someone who got ahold of your phone can use it to dump your data from a non-rooted phone. 2) Law enforcement and intelligence organisations may or may not have tools to dump your data directly off a (desoldered) flash memory chip. You need to enable disk encryption (* ) to protect against this. (* ) I'm assuming a disk encryption that's not rigged, i.e. has no key escrow available to law enforcement.

aray 13y ago
If your phone is not locked, and it's physically compromised, then you're hosed already. If this is something you care about, you probably should lock your phone, and keep it physically secure. If your phone is locked, and there aren't any available root exploits for the system (why is why I'd agree with tytso about getting an unlockable phone -- less incentive for the community to collaborate on what are essentially weaponizeable root exploits) then a physical compromise that installs a persistent rootkit must wipe the device beforehand. (Which gets rid of your data, and is easily noticeable)
- ikonst 13y ago
  Oh, you're talking about persistent rootkit. I was talking about making a one-off backup of your phone, then returning it to your shelf.