4 ms·

Yeah, I am really curious why someone would hate the ecosystem. Very strong word for something like that, surely you have some reason beyond something as superf

Yeah, I am really curious why someone would hate the ecosystem. Very strong word for something like that, surely you have some reason beyond something as superficial as style or your personal experience with a person or project...? Do tell.

emilsedgh 13y ago
"People are always waiting for Microsoft to develop new software/tools/IDEs and it results in a delay and in a dependency when talking about adopting new technologies like SASS, LESS and CoffeeScript, even when a non-Microsoft tool is developed, people tend to wait until a Microsoft solution is released to start to use these new technologies. When good non-Microsoft tools are released (Resharper, CodeRush, RedGate Tools, NCrunch and others), they are usually paid, looks like the community culture is, if people pay for new software, people will sell new software. IMHO, it breaks a little bit the concept of community, that is everybody helping each other to build better and better tools."
bad_user 13y ago
Hate is as strong as Love. I don't see people complaining when other people use Love to describe their feelings. (0) I don't care how great .NET/C# is on top of Windows, because Windows does not exist for me. (1) Visual Studio does not run on my Ubuntu Linux workstation. It does not run on OS X either. In contrast with IntelliJ IDEA or other IDEs. (2) Mono sucks for building and deploying web services on Linux. Last time I tried it, I had to restart the process constantly as it was leaking memory. Performance sucked too. Things should be better now, with that new generational garbage collector, but building web services was always an afterthought. (3) Mono is always behind (while also being ahead in some areas). Async landed in Mono and it's finally usable. People did have to wait a lot of time to try it out. People that think Mono is some sort of .NET for Linux/OS X/iOS are wrong. Mono can be treated as a different platform. Also, Xamarin has been treating Debian/Ubuntu as a second class citizen. The latest version is 3.2.3, but the version I have on my Ubuntu is 2.10.8, as packaging is done by the community. I understand that they have other priorities, but they are also the only company that packages software for Linux and that ignores Ubuntu/Debian. (4) The ecosystem has no real open-source culture. Most third-party tools and frameworks worth bothering with are proprietary/commercial. Most open-source libraries and tools worth considering are either part of the (small) Mono community or are clones of projects running on top of the JVM. The whole ecosystem is actually very Microsoft-centric and Microsoft couldn't even be bothered to ensure that NuGet works on Linux. (5) As a corollary to the above, almost everything you need is proprietary and costs a lot of money. Given that my job does not involve .NET/C#, it means I can only use C# in my personal projects (that's how people start). I don't like building projects on top of freeware and again, as example, for $299 per year, Xamarin doesn't even provide email support. And I could rant all day about how BizSpark / WebSpark suc
- keithwarren 13y ago
  tldr; 0 - I dont like Windows. 1 - I dont have Windows. 2 - I dont have Windows so I use Mono 3 - I dont have Windows so I use Mono and it is behind. 4 - I dont like the OSS community around .NET 5 - I dont like spending money on tools You could have been far more terse.
  - makomk 13y ago
    tldr of keithwarren's tldr: .NET is really Windows only and anyone who actually expects it to be usable on other platforms is a sucker.
    - keithwarren 13y ago
      .NET runtimes I somewhat agree, but C# is different.
  - subsection1h 13y ago
    > You could have been far more terse. Yeah, if he had simply stated that he didn't use Windows, you would have saved yourself some time by immediately disregarding everything he had to say, such as his informative summary of the .NET's OSS ecosystem, which you simplemindedly equated to "don't like".
csmuk 13y ago
Excuse the rant nature of this but I'll give you some reasons as a software/devops guy who does 50/50 UNIX/Windows and has written more C# than I care to remember, daily for 12 years... The ecosystem is horrible. Why? 1. It's full of little cargo cults powered by Greg Young, Udi Dahan and Oren Eini in particular. Each of these sells snake oil that costs you piles of cash and screws up your architecture or heavily couples it into a product which has a recurring cost. 2. Rip off merchants such as Telerik producing buggy components that rarely work. 3. Abandonware galore. There is no inertia. Everything tails off and dies after a bit. You can't drag something off NuGet without the inevitable result of it dying miserably after a year or so. At least we have NuGet now so ancient versions don't just disappear. We have to maintain our own forks of various things now. 4. Framework circle-jerking. Microsoft literally suck up to every framework that appears that gets traction resulting in much friction for those who adopted other frameworks before the circle-jerk began because it's not the one true framework (MVC validation I'm looking at you). 5. Everyone you get off the street is rubbish, at least in the UK. I mean really rubbish. So rubbish even though we offer a damn high salary, we have a 1 in 20 hit rate for staff. Perhaps 1 in 50 people actually give a crap past getting a pay cheque. It seriously attracts the wrong people. 6. Blindness. Not a single person I know has even managed to take a look at other platforms past perhaps owning an iOS or Android phone. There is literally no variation of knowledge or alternative viewpoint to pit the status quo against. It's just a career programming market if you ask me and to be honest it's the only reason I do it. It pays better and I can work locally. Fortunately I have a number of UNIX boxes I can dissolve into (much like some people drink after work).
- spamizbad 13y ago
  I'd also add: 7. Most .NET shops are so technologically conservative they mandate their developers write "C# 2.5" because those C# 3, 4, 5 features are too scary and unproven. Which is part of what causes #5. Also, low quality commercial .NET libraries are an epidemic.
  - stackthatcode 13y ago
    There's no such thing as C# 2.5. You must be referring to 2.0. Anyhow this may be true of financial institutions, but to say that it's a norm... is not my experience at all. > 15 years of experience.

emilsedgh 13y ago

"People are always waiting for Microsoft to develop new software/tools/IDEs and it results in a delay and in a dependency when talking about adopting new technologies like SASS, LESS and CoffeeScript, even when a non-Microsoft tool is developed, people tend to wait until a Microsoft solution is released to start to use these new technologies. When good non-Microsoft tools are released (Resharper, CodeRush, RedGate Tools, NCrunch and others), they are usually paid, looks like the community culture is, if people pay for new software, people will sell new software. IMHO, it breaks a little bit the concept of community, that is everybody helping each other to build better and better tools."

bad_user 13y ago

Hate is as strong as Love. I don't see people complaining when other people use Love to describe their feelings. (0) I don't care how great .NET/C# is on top of Windows, because Windows does not exist for me. (1) Visual Studio does not run on my Ubuntu Linux workstation. It does not run on OS X either. In contrast with IntelliJ IDEA or other IDEs. (2) Mono sucks for building and deploying web services on Linux. Last time I tried it, I had to restart the process constantly as it was leaking memory. Performance sucked too. Things should be better now, with that new generational garbage collector, but building web services was always an afterthought. (3) Mono is always behind (while also being ahead in some areas). Async landed in Mono and it's finally usable. People did have to wait a lot of time to try it out. People that think Mono is some sort of .NET for Linux/OS X/iOS are wrong. Mono can be treated as a different platform. Also, Xamarin has been treating Debian/Ubuntu as a second class citizen. The latest version is 3.2.3, but the version I have on my Ubuntu is 2.10.8, as packaging is done by the community. I understand that they have other priorities, but they are also the only company that packages software for Linux and that ignores Ubuntu/Debian. (4) The ecosystem has no real open-source culture. Most third-party tools and frameworks worth bothering with are proprietary/commercial. Most open-source libraries and tools worth considering are either part of the (small) Mono community or are clones of projects running on top of the JVM. The whole ecosystem is actually very Microsoft-centric and Microsoft couldn't even be bothered to ensure that NuGet works on Linux. (5) As a corollary to the above, almost everything you need is proprietary and costs a lot of money. Given that my job does not involve .NET/C#, it means I can only use C# in my personal projects (that's how people start). I don't like building projects on top of freeware and again, as example, for $299 per year, Xamarin doesn't even provide email support. And I could rant all day about how BizSpark / WebSpark suc

keithwarren 13y ago
tldr; 0 - I dont like Windows. 1 - I dont have Windows. 2 - I dont have Windows so I use Mono 3 - I dont have Windows so I use Mono and it is behind. 4 - I dont like the OSS community around .NET 5 - I dont like spending money on tools You could have been far more terse.
- makomk 13y ago
  tldr of keithwarren's tldr: .NET is really Windows only and anyone who actually expects it to be usable on other platforms is a sucker.
  - keithwarren 13y ago
    .NET runtimes I somewhat agree, but C# is different.
- subsection1h 13y ago
  > You could have been far more terse. Yeah, if he had simply stated that he didn't use Windows, you would have saved yourself some time by immediately disregarding everything he had to say, such as his informative summary of the .NET's OSS ecosystem, which you simplemindedly equated to "don't like".

csmuk 13y ago

Excuse the rant nature of this but I'll give you some reasons as a software/devops guy who does 50/50 UNIX/Windows and has written more C# than I care to remember, daily for 12 years... The ecosystem is horrible. Why? 1. It's full of little cargo cults powered by Greg Young, Udi Dahan and Oren Eini in particular. Each of these sells snake oil that costs you piles of cash and screws up your architecture or heavily couples it into a product which has a recurring cost. 2. Rip off merchants such as Telerik producing buggy components that rarely work. 3. Abandonware galore. There is no inertia. Everything tails off and dies after a bit. You can't drag something off NuGet without the inevitable result of it dying miserably after a year or so. At least we have NuGet now so ancient versions don't just disappear. We have to maintain our own forks of various things now. 4. Framework circle-jerking. Microsoft literally suck up to every framework that appears that gets traction resulting in much friction for those who adopted other frameworks before the circle-jerk began because it's not the one true framework (MVC validation I'm looking at you). 5. Everyone you get off the street is rubbish, at least in the UK. I mean really rubbish. So rubbish even though we offer a damn high salary, we have a 1 in 20 hit rate for staff. Perhaps 1 in 50 people actually give a crap past getting a pay cheque. It seriously attracts the wrong people. 6. Blindness. Not a single person I know has even managed to take a look at other platforms past perhaps owning an iOS or Android phone. There is literally no variation of knowledge or alternative viewpoint to pit the status quo against. It's just a career programming market if you ask me and to be honest it's the only reason I do it. It pays better and I can work locally. Fortunately I have a number of UNIX boxes I can dissolve into (much like some people drink after work).

spamizbad 13y ago
I'd also add: 7. Most .NET shops are so technologically conservative they mandate their developers write "C# 2.5" because those C# 3, 4, 5 features are too scary and unproven. Which is part of what causes #5. Also, low quality commercial .NET libraries are an epidemic.
- stackthatcode 13y ago
  There's no such thing as C# 2.5. You must be referring to 2.0. Anyhow this may be true of financial institutions, but to say that it's a norm... is not my experience at all. > 15 years of experience.