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It sounds like your exams are more like Microsoft Certifications rather than US university exams. At top US universities, it is common to include questions tha

It sounds like your exams are more like Microsoft Certifications rather than US university exams. At top US universities, it is common to include questions that only one person in 100, or zero in 100 will get right. I took plenty of Math exams with 10 questions, where getting 5 would earn an A, and 8 is how many grad students would get right, and the 10th question was a joke, like Fermat's Last Theorem. The exams were not to demonstrate you are certified in a subject, but rather to show your ability and limits. Not grading on a curve is a horrible idea. It means the exam must be limited to material that is taught, rather than limiting it to known knowledge in the universe. German University sounds like a big ass certification program, not a real university.

revelation 13y ago
I don't know how you would arrive at that conclusion from the information I've provided. Exams are not at all restricted to the material taught; usually, knowing all the covered material and being able to reproduce it will only get you as far as 50%, allowing you to pass. Points above that will come from novel applications of the material you learned, or tests on the general concepts and approaches you should have learned.
- jcampbell1 13y ago
  Everything is fair game at top US universities. >novel applications of the material you learned >tests on the general concepts and approaches you should have learned. The difference is that top US universities will ask questions that there is no reason you should possibly know the answer, and questions that only a person obsessed with the subject matter would possibly know. Grading on a curve allows the professors to ask really hard questions. Both knowledgeable students and exceptional students get the same grade, but the exceptional students get recommendations. You probably think the US is very unfair. It is. In the US, it is common that half the class gets a 50%, 10 people get a 70%, and one person gets a 90%. That one person is not lumped in with the rest. She is tracked to win a future Nobel prize. Top US university exams are not the same as Microsoft certifications.
  - rbehrends 13y ago
    In the US, it is common that half the class gets a 50%, 10 people get a 70%, and one person gets a 90%. And that is precisely the same in Germany; I've seen my share of exams where anything above 70% was the equivalent to an A, because nobody could realistically be expected to get 90%, let alone 100%; with questions where "there is no reason you should possibly know the answer, and questions that only a person obsessed with the subject matter would possibly know". I've seen courses where four out of five students failed the exam. I have absolutely no idea where you get the idea that it's like a Microsoft certification. The difference in Germany is that if nobody gets an A, then nobody gets an A, period [1]. If everybody fails the course, then, well, everybody fails the course. Part of the reason is that German universities traditionally have had pretty open admission policies; which meant that there never was much room for a C for effort. Grades had to mean something, namely that the student was deserving of a degree. And that meant that students had to be graded relative to the degree requirements, not relative to the rest of the class. And they ask really hard questions so that they can differentiate between the good and the brilliant. For what it's worth, I've taken graduate math courses both in Germany and in the US; I think I have a pretty good idea what it's like in either country. [1] Actually, Germany doesn't have an alphabetic system for grades, but you get the idea.
EliRivers 13y ago
Not grading on a curve is a horrible idea. Maybe I misunderstand what this curve grading is all about, but doesn't grading on a curve mean the grade is not a measure of how good one is, but how one compares to other people who happened to be taking the exam at the same time? So you don't have to be any good to get a top grade - just better than other people taking the exam at the same time? And likewise, you could be the world's tenth greatest living chemist, but if the other nine people taking the exam are the world's top nine, you'll fail. And not doing this is "a horrible idea"?
- jcampbell1 13y ago
  This is a complex issue. Harvard grades everyone on a curve, and basically never gives lower than a B. They use "A+" as a system to identify the truly exceptional people. My point is that a professor should be able to write 20 questions that are relevant and interesting, and just look at the distribution of results to assign grades. I think that makes sense, rather than turning university exams into certification style exams. My answer to why, it is a horrible idea to not grade on a curve requires and anecdote: I took an impossibly hard math course with about 15 students where the average grade was a 2, I got a 4, one guy got a 6, and another guy got an 8. The professor gave me an A, but in reality, I was 4 orders of magnitude dumber than the best student. Professors have discretion. The main reason I tell this story, is that the guys that got a 6/10 and and 8/10 have both gone on to have an 8-figure net-worth (fuck-you money). One through finance, and another through a startup. It has been awesome to see the people that I know are insanely smart become insanely wealthy. The important part of this anecdote is that the professors that wrote the exam wrote two questions that one of smartest humans on earth could not answer. How fucked up would the world be if the professor had only written the 4 questions we all got it right? Asking impossible questions creates greatness. Grading on a curve enables professors to find truly exceptional people.
  - EliRivers 13y ago
    What you've written here doesn't make much sense; possibly because the reason you wrote it wasn't to support your argument but to tell us you went to school with some people who became very rich. "How fucked up would the world be if the professor had only written the 4 questions we all got it right?" This just doesn't make sense. What are you trying to say? Did you mean to ask "What happens if there were only four questions and we all got it right?" "My point is that a professor should be able to write 20 questions that are relevant and interesting, and just look at the distribution of results to assign grades." Fine. My point is that this means you're being marked on the basis of how well you did compared to everyone else who took the exam, which means it's not a measure of how good you are; it's a measure of how good you are compared to the others taking the exam. If the purpose of taking the exam is to demonstrate you know the material, grading on a curve subverts and corrupts that purpose. Any exam in which your mark depends on how well other people do in the exam is a nonsense; your mark should only depend on how well you do in the exam. If the professor knows the exam is horrifically difficult and thinks that to score twenty percent is amazing, you should get a good mark for reaching twenty percent, even if everyone else scores fifty percent.
derefr 13y ago
> It means the exam must be limited to material that is taught, rather than limiting it to known knowledge in the universe. To turn that around, grading on a curve means that the test can have nothing to do with the material taught in the course--and so cannot be used paired with a pre-test to calculate the effectiveness of the course (and of the professor) in teaching the material. (Not that such things are even measured in Universities, especially for tenured professors...)
HarryHirsch 13y ago
German University sounds like a big ass certification program, not a real university. Degrees in Germany were traditionally research degrees (this may have changed when they introduced the Bachelor), and this explains why exams are done the way they are done. The thesis at the end is substantial (a Diplom or Magister thesis was a year of genuine research), you would hand it in, they would examine you, and if you passed you would be admitted to the club. That's what German universities are, exclusive clubs. Of course, before you can go and start writing, there are all sorts of prerequisites to be fulfilled. There is sufficient interaction between the students and faculty to spot the geniuses, the good and average students, and the hopeless cases. The hopeless ones would be failed out within the first two years.

revelation 13y ago

I don't know how you would arrive at that conclusion from the information I've provided. Exams are not at all restricted to the material taught; usually, knowing all the covered material and being able to reproduce it will only get you as far as 50%, allowing you to pass. Points above that will come from novel applications of the material you learned, or tests on the general concepts and approaches you should have learned.

jcampbell1 13y ago
Everything is fair game at top US universities. >novel applications of the material you learned >tests on the general concepts and approaches you should have learned. The difference is that top US universities will ask questions that there is no reason you should possibly know the answer, and questions that only a person obsessed with the subject matter would possibly know. Grading on a curve allows the professors to ask really hard questions. Both knowledgeable students and exceptional students get the same grade, but the exceptional students get recommendations. You probably think the US is very unfair. It is. In the US, it is common that half the class gets a 50%, 10 people get a 70%, and one person gets a 90%. That one person is not lumped in with the rest. She is tracked to win a future Nobel prize. Top US university exams are not the same as Microsoft certifications.
- rbehrends 13y ago
  In the US, it is common that half the class gets a 50%, 10 people get a 70%, and one person gets a 90%. And that is precisely the same in Germany; I've seen my share of exams where anything above 70% was the equivalent to an A, because nobody could realistically be expected to get 90%, let alone 100%; with questions where "there is no reason you should possibly know the answer, and questions that only a person obsessed with the subject matter would possibly know". I've seen courses where four out of five students failed the exam. I have absolutely no idea where you get the idea that it's like a Microsoft certification. The difference in Germany is that if nobody gets an A, then nobody gets an A, period [1]. If everybody fails the course, then, well, everybody fails the course. Part of the reason is that German universities traditionally have had pretty open admission policies; which meant that there never was much room for a C for effort. Grades had to mean something, namely that the student was deserving of a degree. And that meant that students had to be graded relative to the degree requirements, not relative to the rest of the class. And they ask really hard questions so that they can differentiate between the good and the brilliant. For what it's worth, I've taken graduate math courses both in Germany and in the US; I think I have a pretty good idea what it's like in either country. [1] Actually, Germany doesn't have an alphabetic system for grades, but you get the idea.

EliRivers 13y ago

Not grading on a curve is a horrible idea. Maybe I misunderstand what this curve grading is all about, but doesn't grading on a curve mean the grade is not a measure of how good one is, but how one compares to other people who happened to be taking the exam at the same time? So you don't have to be any good to get a top grade - just better than other people taking the exam at the same time? And likewise, you could be the world's tenth greatest living chemist, but if the other nine people taking the exam are the world's top nine, you'll fail. And not doing this is "a horrible idea"?

jcampbell1 13y ago
This is a complex issue. Harvard grades everyone on a curve, and basically never gives lower than a B. They use "A+" as a system to identify the truly exceptional people. My point is that a professor should be able to write 20 questions that are relevant and interesting, and just look at the distribution of results to assign grades. I think that makes sense, rather than turning university exams into certification style exams. My answer to why, it is a horrible idea to not grade on a curve requires and anecdote: I took an impossibly hard math course with about 15 students where the average grade was a 2, I got a 4, one guy got a 6, and another guy got an 8. The professor gave me an A, but in reality, I was 4 orders of magnitude dumber than the best student. Professors have discretion. The main reason I tell this story, is that the guys that got a 6/10 and and 8/10 have both gone on to have an 8-figure net-worth (fuck-you money). One through finance, and another through a startup. It has been awesome to see the people that I know are insanely smart become insanely wealthy. The important part of this anecdote is that the professors that wrote the exam wrote two questions that one of smartest humans on earth could not answer. How fucked up would the world be if the professor had only written the 4 questions we all got it right? Asking impossible questions creates greatness. Grading on a curve enables professors to find truly exceptional people.
- EliRivers 13y ago
  What you've written here doesn't make much sense; possibly because the reason you wrote it wasn't to support your argument but to tell us you went to school with some people who became very rich. "How fucked up would the world be if the professor had only written the 4 questions we all got it right?" This just doesn't make sense. What are you trying to say? Did you mean to ask "What happens if there were only four questions and we all got it right?" "My point is that a professor should be able to write 20 questions that are relevant and interesting, and just look at the distribution of results to assign grades." Fine. My point is that this means you're being marked on the basis of how well you did compared to everyone else who took the exam, which means it's not a measure of how good you are; it's a measure of how good you are compared to the others taking the exam. If the purpose of taking the exam is to demonstrate you know the material, grading on a curve subverts and corrupts that purpose. Any exam in which your mark depends on how well other people do in the exam is a nonsense; your mark should only depend on how well you do in the exam. If the professor knows the exam is horrifically difficult and thinks that to score twenty percent is amazing, you should get a good mark for reaching twenty percent, even if everyone else scores fifty percent.

derefr 13y ago

> It means the exam must be limited to material that is taught, rather than limiting it to known knowledge in the universe. To turn that around, grading on a curve means that the test can have nothing to do with the material taught in the course--and so cannot be used paired with a pre-test to calculate the effectiveness of the course (and of the professor) in teaching the material. (Not that such things are even measured in Universities, especially for tenured professors...)

HarryHirsch 13y ago

German University sounds like a big ass certification program, not a real university. Degrees in Germany were traditionally research degrees (this may have changed when they introduced the Bachelor), and this explains why exams are done the way they are done. The thesis at the end is substantial (a Diplom or Magister thesis was a year of genuine research), you would hand it in, they would examine you, and if you passed you would be admitted to the club. That's what German universities are, exclusive clubs. Of course, before you can go and start writing, there are all sorts of prerequisites to be fulfilled. There is sufficient interaction between the students and faculty to spot the geniuses, the good and average students, and the hopeless cases. The hopeless ones would be failed out within the first two years.