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Question 1 was bizarre. I'm not even sure what they were trying to ask. Question 2 "There are 8 Jars. 6 Jars have Jelly. The rest have peanut butter. How m

Question 1 was bizarre. I'm not even sure what they were trying to ask. Question 2 "There are 8 Jars. 6 Jars have Jelly. The rest have peanut butter. How many Jars have Peanut Butter." The first thing that occurred to me is that we didn't specify the Jars with Jelly don't have peanut butter. Horrible question. Question 3,4 I can live with. Question 10 was greek. Question 11 - Once again, nothing states that the others aren't red as well. Reinforcing poor logical thinking. Question 12 "Related Subtraction Sentence?" No wonder these kids are crying. I couldn't read any further. This is how they are trying to teach kids math?

seniorsassycat 13y ago
I don't agree with your complaints about 2 or 11, assumptions are a part of everyday communication. Anyway, wouldn't the question would be unanswerable if some of the jelly jars could have peanut butter? We know the question is answerable, therefor no jelly jars can have peanut butter.
- glenra 13y ago
  > Anyway, wouldn't the question would be unanswerable if some of the jelly jars could have peanut butter? No, the question is answerable but it's answerable with a range rather than a specific number. > We know the question is answerable How do we know that? Lots of real-world questions aren't answerable and even if the author meant this one to be, textbook authors are fallible. So I don't think that's a fair assumption. And yeah, I nitpicked exactly like that back when I was in grade school too. :-)
- ghshephard 13y ago
  Could you accept that these assumption are frequently made incorrectly? Let us say I went shopping, and I know that I purchased eight jars of sandwich spread. I know that six of the jars had a mixed peanut butter/jelly stuff that you can squeeze out, and I remember the other two had peanut butter in a glass jar, but I can't remember if they were mixed or not, and I say, of those eight jars, "Six of the jars had jelly, the rest had peanut butter" - because that's all I was certain of - that somebody then inferring that the six jars did NOT have peanut butter, and that the other two jars did NOT have jelly -would be wrong in doing so? It's entirely possible that the question was poorly put together, and the answers provided were not sufficient to correctly answer the question. Test makers aren't all perfect beings - as clearly demonstrated by this test.
harshreality 13y ago
The test becomes much simpler after realizing that it covers simple addition and subtraction and that it was written by someone who failed logic 101 and doesn't know who Edward Tufte is. When a question doesn't make sense, visual positioning of the elements offers clues, and in the logically incorrect questions, there are simple assumptions (only two red in question 11, only pb or only jelly in question 2) that make the question a simple addition or subtraction problem. I'm not saying the test is good for first graders, but I think complaints that problems are wrong or confusing miss the point of the test. It is not a logic test.
Jach 13y ago
I'm okay with questions 2 and 11. Admittedly #2 could be made more explicit by adding the word "only" after "have", but I think in the absence of the word "some" then it's a valid inference to conclude the writer meant "only". Same thing with #11, it could have been made more explicit (in two ways!) by saying "only 2 are entirely red" and asking how many are not entirely red. But again, I think in the absence of a phrase like "at least two of them are partially red" then inferring "only two are entirely red" is valid. I also think the majority would have no problem making those inferences -- the person whose test was uploaded didn't have a problem (they just failed with subtraction on #11). I think I get #5. The person wrote a 9 when they should have written a 4. #6 is fine, but then it makes #12 not make sense. Shouldn't a subtraction sentence have a subtraction symbol in it? Or is a "related subtraction sentence" an actual thing, not just asking what the subtraction sentence is in relation to the picture? #7 is fine. #8 introduces the "number sentence". (What's wrong with the word "equation"?) But aren't all of the examples "subtraction sentences"? Bah! Apart from that it's fine... #9 introduces the "subtraction story". Guh?
- mturmon 13y ago
  "... #12 [does] not make sense. Shouldn't a subtraction sentence have a subtraction symbol in it?" I have a kid who went through this curriculum, and yes, a subtraction sentence needs a "-" sign in it. The idea of a "related subtraction sentence" is a standard thing in this curriculum. I think #12 is the worst question on the test, because it is flat-out wrong. Like I wrote elsewhere, I'm ok with "number sentence" because of the parallel with regular sentences. It gets the kids familiar with the idea that the math is making assertions. I TA'd several undergrad engineering classes (at a top-10 engineering school) and you'd be surprised how many students did not use the equal sign in their work. They would write one expression down, and then another under it, and another beside that one, etc., but without equal signs, it's just babbling.
- ghshephard 13y ago
  "but I think in the absence of the word "some" then it's a valid inference to conclude the writer meant "only"" The first two years of critical thinking were dedicated to trying to drive that type of logic out of our head. "Six Jars Have Jelly" in no way implies they don't also have peanut butter, it simply makes explicit that six jars have Jelly. "The rest have peanut butter" doesn't imply the rest don't have jelly, it simply makes explicit there are at least two jars with Peanut Butter. That entire sentence would have been perfectly applied to 8 jars of peanut butter/jelly. By suggesting it does not, you are setting in place logical frameworks in a child's head that become very difficult to remove - even if it's clear they are invalid frameworks. When you say, "I also think the majority would have no problem making those inferences" - you are just making my point - the Majority of people come to conclusions that are in no way supported by the text, and, even worse, when you point out their error, they instead suggest an inference has been made in the text, when it very clearly has not. "Some of the Apples in the barrel" in no way suggests not all of the Apples are rotten. "A few people in the crowd acted out against the police" doesn't imply they didn't all act against the police, etc... The person whose test was uploaded is a six year old who is doing their level best to come up with the "right" answer. In ten years, they are they same type of student, who, in a chemistry exam, when provided with the question, "What particle in an atom has the least negative charge" will answer, "Electron".

seniorsassycat 13y ago

I don't agree with your complaints about 2 or 11, assumptions are a part of everyday communication. Anyway, wouldn't the question would be unanswerable if some of the jelly jars could have peanut butter? We know the question is answerable, therefor no jelly jars can have peanut butter.

glenra 13y ago
> Anyway, wouldn't the question would be unanswerable if some of the jelly jars could have peanut butter? No, the question is answerable but it's answerable with a range rather than a specific number. > We know the question is answerable How do we know that? Lots of real-world questions aren't answerable and even if the author meant this one to be, textbook authors are fallible. So I don't think that's a fair assumption. And yeah, I nitpicked exactly like that back when I was in grade school too. :-)
ghshephard 13y ago
Could you accept that these assumption are frequently made incorrectly? Let us say I went shopping, and I know that I purchased eight jars of sandwich spread. I know that six of the jars had a mixed peanut butter/jelly stuff that you can squeeze out, and I remember the other two had peanut butter in a glass jar, but I can't remember if they were mixed or not, and I say, of those eight jars, "Six of the jars had jelly, the rest had peanut butter" - because that's all I was certain of - that somebody then inferring that the six jars did NOT have peanut butter, and that the other two jars did NOT have jelly -would be wrong in doing so? It's entirely possible that the question was poorly put together, and the answers provided were not sufficient to correctly answer the question. Test makers aren't all perfect beings - as clearly demonstrated by this test.

harshreality 13y ago

The test becomes much simpler after realizing that it covers simple addition and subtraction and that it was written by someone who failed logic 101 and doesn't know who Edward Tufte is. When a question doesn't make sense, visual positioning of the elements offers clues, and in the logically incorrect questions, there are simple assumptions (only two red in question 11, only pb or only jelly in question 2) that make the question a simple addition or subtraction problem. I'm not saying the test is good for first graders, but I think complaints that problems are wrong or confusing miss the point of the test. It is not a logic test.

Jach 13y ago

I'm okay with questions 2 and 11. Admittedly #2 could be made more explicit by adding the word "only" after "have", but I think in the absence of the word "some" then it's a valid inference to conclude the writer meant "only". Same thing with #11, it could have been made more explicit (in two ways!) by saying "only 2 are entirely red" and asking how many are not entirely red. But again, I think in the absence of a phrase like "at least two of them are partially red" then inferring "only two are entirely red" is valid. I also think the majority would have no problem making those inferences -- the person whose test was uploaded didn't have a problem (they just failed with subtraction on #11). I think I get #5. The person wrote a 9 when they should have written a 4. #6 is fine, but then it makes #12 not make sense. Shouldn't a subtraction sentence have a subtraction symbol in it? Or is a "related subtraction sentence" an actual thing, not just asking what the subtraction sentence is in relation to the picture? #7 is fine. #8 introduces the "number sentence". (What's wrong with the word "equation"?) But aren't all of the examples "subtraction sentences"? Bah! Apart from that it's fine... #9 introduces the "subtraction story". Guh?

mturmon 13y ago
"... #12 [does] not make sense. Shouldn't a subtraction sentence have a subtraction symbol in it?" I have a kid who went through this curriculum, and yes, a subtraction sentence needs a "-" sign in it. The idea of a "related subtraction sentence" is a standard thing in this curriculum. I think #12 is the worst question on the test, because it is flat-out wrong. Like I wrote elsewhere, I'm ok with "number sentence" because of the parallel with regular sentences. It gets the kids familiar with the idea that the math is making assertions. I TA'd several undergrad engineering classes (at a top-10 engineering school) and you'd be surprised how many students did not use the equal sign in their work. They would write one expression down, and then another under it, and another beside that one, etc., but without equal signs, it's just babbling.
ghshephard 13y ago
"but I think in the absence of the word "some" then it's a valid inference to conclude the writer meant "only"" The first two years of critical thinking were dedicated to trying to drive that type of logic out of our head. "Six Jars Have Jelly" in no way implies they don't also have peanut butter, it simply makes explicit that six jars have Jelly. "The rest have peanut butter" doesn't imply the rest don't have jelly, it simply makes explicit there are at least two jars with Peanut Butter. That entire sentence would have been perfectly applied to 8 jars of peanut butter/jelly. By suggesting it does not, you are setting in place logical frameworks in a child's head that become very difficult to remove - even if it's clear they are invalid frameworks. When you say, "I also think the majority would have no problem making those inferences" - you are just making my point - the Majority of people come to conclusions that are in no way supported by the text, and, even worse, when you point out their error, they instead suggest an inference has been made in the text, when it very clearly has not. "Some of the Apples in the barrel" in no way suggests not all of the Apples are rotten. "A few people in the crowd acted out against the police" doesn't imply they didn't all act against the police, etc... The person whose test was uploaded is a six year old who is doing their level best to come up with the "right" answer. In ten years, they are they same type of student, who, in a chemistry exam, when provided with the question, "What particle in an atom has the least negative charge" will answer, "Electron".