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An Honest Open Discussion on Web Standards and HTML 5

6 points by radley 17y ago

enomar 17y ago
> HTML5 won’t be an option for traditional developers until 90%+ of the web is using an HTML5 capable browser Sure, you can't depend on Y functionality until X% of your audience uses a browser with that capability. But that doesn't mean you can't use it. It's called progressive enhancement. Everyone gets some base functionality, and those using the right browsers get an enhanced experience. It's a technique used by javascript developers all the time. And it's really the only way to move the web forward. There has to be some incentive for people to upgrade their browsers. We can't just say, "please upgrade so we can start writing some cool sites for you."
- SamAtt 17y ago
  I completely agree. In fact I'm not sure what his argument really is here. Right now Flash gets updated because people run into a website that says "you need a newer version of Flash for this" and they want the content enough to push the update button. So when HTML5 browsers start coming out and those IE6 users run into sites that say "you need a newer version of [insert browser here] to view this" I find it hard to believe those same people won't click the "update" button on their browser if they want the content bad enough. That means, as time goes by, HTML5 browsers should have around the same penetration that Adobe Flash has.
enomar 17y ago
> The time required to allow for users of older browsers to upgrade, can add another 5+ years to the process. There are a couple historical reasons why we have so many users on non-modern browsers. First, people wrote a bunch of apps without regard for standards because IE was so dominant. Second, browsers (IE) were not easy to update. Both of these are no longer reality. I believe that once we get people off of IE 6, it will be much easier to keep people upgraded.
ZeroGravitas 17y ago
It's good that Flash developers know so little about the web. They're not going to know what's hit them. He's not clicked that google gears is a plugin that implements html5 in older browsers, even as he calls it out for cheating by doing exactly that. I also look forward to the irony of delivering (the technically superb) Ogg Vorbis audio to IE via Flash.
enomar 17y ago
> Every new feature in HTML 5 (except maybe 2) were added because developers wanted functionality already available in a plugin. Right. No one is saying plugins don't have their place. They're a great way to get things you need right now without browser vendors having to provide it for you. There are many reasons why it's better to eventually move this functionality into standards though. And I see no arguments for keeping functionality indefinitely in a plug-in.

6 points by radley 17y ago

> HTML5 won’t be an option for traditional developers until 90%+ of the web is using an HTML5 capable browser Sure, you can't depend on Y functionality until X% of your audience uses a browser with that capability. But that doesn't mean you can't use it. It's called progressive enhancement. Everyone gets some base functionality, and those using the right browsers get an enhanced experience. It's a technique used by javascript developers all the time. And it's really the only way to move the web forward. There has to be some incentive for people to upgrade their browsers. We can't just say, "please upgrade so we can start writing some cool sites for you."

SamAtt 17y ago
I completely agree. In fact I'm not sure what his argument really is here. Right now Flash gets updated because people run into a website that says "you need a newer version of Flash for this" and they want the content enough to push the update button. So when HTML5 browsers start coming out and those IE6 users run into sites that say "you need a newer version of [insert browser here] to view this" I find it hard to believe those same people won't click the "update" button on their browser if they want the content bad enough. That means, as time goes by, HTML5 browsers should have around the same penetration that Adobe Flash has.

enomar 17y ago

> The time required to allow for users of older browsers to upgrade, can add another 5+ years to the process. There are a couple historical reasons why we have so many users on non-modern browsers. First, people wrote a bunch of apps without regard for standards because IE was so dominant. Second, browsers (IE) were not easy to update. Both of these are no longer reality. I believe that once we get people off of IE 6, it will be much easier to keep people upgraded.

ZeroGravitas 17y ago

It's good that Flash developers know so little about the web. They're not going to know what's hit them. He's not clicked that google gears is a plugin that implements html5 in older browsers, even as he calls it out for cheating by doing exactly that. I also look forward to the irony of delivering (the technically superb) Ogg Vorbis audio to IE via Flash.

enomar 17y ago

> Every new feature in HTML 5 (except maybe 2) were added because developers wanted functionality already available in a plugin. Right. No one is saying plugins don't have their place. They're a great way to get things you need right now without browser vendors having to provide it for you. There are many reasons why it's better to eventually move this functionality into standards though. And I see no arguments for keeping functionality indefinitely in a plug-in.