5 ms·

There are a number of reasons. Most states have laws regarding how temporary rental properties (otherwise known as hotels) are zoned. You can't suddenly turn a

by rll 13y ago

There are a number of reasons. Most states have laws regarding how temporary rental properties (otherwise known as hotels) are zoned. You can't suddenly turn a building zoned for residential use into a hotel without getting it re-zoned. Also, NY specifically worries that it will change the local housing market. If investors buy up enough local properties and turn them into mini hotels, locals may be priced out of these neighbourhoods and those neighbourhoods will in turn suffer. Plus there are the complaints from the locals. Having a neighbour rent out their place to tourists a couple of times a year is not a big deal, but if it happens every single week it gets annoying. You never know who is coming and going and they aren't always all that worried about noise, garbage, etc. And just to clarify, I think the state is right to be concerned about these issues. But at the same time I would hate to lose the ability for someone to put their primary residence on a site like Airbnb a couple of times a year. This helps visitors and the residents without significantly hurting anything else in the equation. Things only start to turn sour when enough people create dedicated Airbnb properties as investments.

_pmf_ 13y ago
It's a bit sad that you have to explain this to grown up people.
- atwebb 13y ago
  I'm not sure that residential/commercial zoning laws in US states falls under the umbrella of general knowledge.
  - _pmf_ 13y ago
    There's nothing US specific about zoning laws. They most probably preceded the founding of your silly colony.
    - Symmetry 13y ago
      The first modern zoning was in 1916 in New York for height related reasons. Great Britain didn't start zoning until 1947. EDIT: I was sort of surprised that was the first zoning, when I just looked it up. I always mentally associated zoning with 1920s progressive social engineering.
      - wavefunction 13y ago
        HAHA, take that ole Blighty! But really, the whole idea that AirBNB should be able to ignore established zoning is another example of why I consider the "sharing" economy to be the "taking" economy. Sharing space peacefully is exactly what zoning is aimed at.
        mahyarm 13y ago
        Zoning is still a contested topic, it has been blamed for enabling much of the NIMBYism in America for example. Another one is creating huge traffic and commuting situations that don't need to be there by putting business in one zone, housing in another and forcing people to move between the two every day. It makes such things as shopkeeper residences where the shop is on the first floor and the family who manages it lives on the second or third floors significantly more work.
        wavefunction 13y ago
        My bustling city (one of those "top US cities to move to that isn't the Bay Area or NYC") has tons of first-floor commercial, second floor residential developments, including a fair number of "row houses" zoned commercial first floor residential second and third floors where both the commercial space and residential areas are owned by the same owner. There's a huge push to build high density in this city that was formerly pretty much all low-density ten years ago. These are all new builds in the past 8 years.
      - jacalata 13y ago
        Not true. Paris had zoning laws (including building height restrictions and business location restrictions) since before Haussman, in the early 1800s[0]. New York passed the first US laws, as far as I can tell from a quick search (although I do see vague references to San Francisco using zoning laws against the Chinese in the 1880s, and a lot of people, including Wikipedia, quoting a more limited achievement of 'the first comprehensive/city-wide zoning laws' for New York), but Europe definitely predated them. I believe Germany and some other countries also had them, besides France. [0]: http://books.google.com/books?id=dONVGtJzxrwC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=The+decree+of+26+March+1852&source=bl&ots=mtfyfzosLr&sig=j1cu4n1UQN4XaaYNR7uYKDHF0Zs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LzV0UqWrBoj-igKLiIFo&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20decree%20of%2026%20March%201852&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=dONVGtJzxrwC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA...
- flycaliguy 13y ago
  Buddy just asked a question that solicited an informative answer for all of us to read. Not sad.
  - ubernostrum 13y ago
    The general "sad" for me is that HN has so many strong libertarian types who start from an assumption that government regulation is practically always wrong and done for corrupt purposes. Learning that this is not the case is a lesson one could easily pick up much earlier in life, so it's sad that they made it this far without understanding that.
    - _delirium 13y ago
      I put it down to the poor state of our mathematical education. The naive understanding of economic systems libertarians display is actually fairly similar to what you see in introductory dynamical-systems courses. You can, with great care, construct some "well-behaved" systems where you present a set of rules, and the expected thing happens: you push lever X and Y happens. Raise the minimum wage and unemployment rises! But of course, most systems are not so well-behaved, so that is only a lead-in to the real examples, where you change the setup slightly and suddenly analysis grows more complex. Now what happens when you push lever X depends on what region of the state-space you're in! And sometimes pushing lever X can change the region of the state-space you're in, too! There is feedback and internal dynamics. I see very little libertarian economics that displays even a 101-level understanding of any of that.
      - lambdaphage 13y ago
        If you keep treating your intellectual opponents like this, you're going to get trounced the next time you run into a smart one. To be very brief, you seem to think that libertarians believe, roughly, (1) "the world is simple, so we should have simple rules." Instead, you suggest: (2) "the world is complicated, so we should have complicated rules." But this claim is entirely unresponsive to: (3) "the world is complicated, so we should have simple rules." which is what most libertarians I know actually think. If you respond to (1) when your opponents are arguing for (3), you will not have productive conversations.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- umsm 13y ago
  These people are investors. Investors usually look solely at the money instead of the effects or consequences.
Retric 13y ago
I think your missing a huge one. Taxes, hotels in major city's often send 10+$ a day to the local government. And before people complain about this that money often pays for things like museums and convention centers which is why many people are going to the city in the first place. Edit: NY get's 10$ on a one room 140$ hotel room stay as it's $2.00 per day per room* + 5.875% of the rent. http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/business/hotel.shtml http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/business/hotel.shtml
- mahyarm 13y ago
  So if NYC just made airbnb charge the 5.875% tax, most of their complaints would go away? And by increasing the hotel supply, hotel prices would go down to better match actual long term renting? Then it would create a more liquid housing market enabled by computerized markets? It would still allow casual renting of people's houses that way.
  - mbreese 13y ago
    No, their complaints aren't strictly about the missing tax revenue. There are other regulations that would need to be addressed (health, safety, etc...). Hotels are a heavily regulated industry with good reason. Regulations are a protection mechanism to protect the city/neighborhood and the consumer. I think that there is a clear difference between renting out a room or occasionally renting your entire place, versus keeping a separate apartment strictly for renting out on AirBnB.

by rll 13y ago

_pmf_ 13y ago

It's a bit sad that you have to explain this to grown up people.

atwebb 13y ago
I'm not sure that residential/commercial zoning laws in US states falls under the umbrella of general knowledge.
- _pmf_ 13y ago
  There's nothing US specific about zoning laws. They most probably preceded the founding of your silly colony.
  - Symmetry 13y ago
    The first modern zoning was in 1916 in New York for height related reasons. Great Britain didn't start zoning until 1947. EDIT: I was sort of surprised that was the first zoning, when I just looked it up. I always mentally associated zoning with 1920s progressive social engineering.
    - wavefunction 13y ago
      HAHA, take that ole Blighty! But really, the whole idea that AirBNB should be able to ignore established zoning is another example of why I consider the "sharing" economy to be the "taking" economy. Sharing space peacefully is exactly what zoning is aimed at.
      - mahyarm 13y ago
        Zoning is still a contested topic, it has been blamed for enabling much of the NIMBYism in America for example. Another one is creating huge traffic and commuting situations that don't need to be there by putting business in one zone, housing in another and forcing people to move between the two every day. It makes such things as shopkeeper residences where the shop is on the first floor and the family who manages it lives on the second or third floors significantly more work.
        wavefunction 13y ago
        My bustling city (one of those "top US cities to move to that isn't the Bay Area or NYC") has tons of first-floor commercial, second floor residential developments, including a fair number of "row houses" zoned commercial first floor residential second and third floors where both the commercial space and residential areas are owned by the same owner. There's a huge push to build high density in this city that was formerly pretty much all low-density ten years ago. These are all new builds in the past 8 years.
    - jacalata 13y ago
      Not true. Paris had zoning laws (including building height restrictions and business location restrictions) since before Haussman, in the early 1800s[0]. New York passed the first US laws, as far as I can tell from a quick search (although I do see vague references to San Francisco using zoning laws against the Chinese in the 1880s, and a lot of people, including Wikipedia, quoting a more limited achievement of 'the first comprehensive/city-wide zoning laws' for New York), but Europe definitely predated them. I believe Germany and some other countries also had them, besides France. [0]: http://books.google.com/books?id=dONVGtJzxrwC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=The+decree+of+26+March+1852&source=bl&ots=mtfyfzosLr&sig=j1cu4n1UQN4XaaYNR7uYKDHF0Zs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LzV0UqWrBoj-igKLiIFo&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=The%20decree%20of%2026%20March%201852&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=dONVGtJzxrwC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA...
flycaliguy 13y ago
Buddy just asked a question that solicited an informative answer for all of us to read. Not sad.
- ubernostrum 13y ago
  The general "sad" for me is that HN has so many strong libertarian types who start from an assumption that government regulation is practically always wrong and done for corrupt purposes. Learning that this is not the case is a lesson one could easily pick up much earlier in life, so it's sad that they made it this far without understanding that.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    I put it down to the poor state of our mathematical education. The naive understanding of economic systems libertarians display is actually fairly similar to what you see in introductory dynamical-systems courses. You can, with great care, construct some "well-behaved" systems where you present a set of rules, and the expected thing happens: you push lever X and Y happens. Raise the minimum wage and unemployment rises! But of course, most systems are not so well-behaved, so that is only a lead-in to the real examples, where you change the setup slightly and suddenly analysis grows more complex. Now what happens when you push lever X depends on what region of the state-space you're in! And sometimes pushing lever X can change the region of the state-space you're in, too! There is feedback and internal dynamics. I see very little libertarian economics that displays even a 101-level understanding of any of that.
    - lambdaphage 13y ago
      If you keep treating your intellectual opponents like this, you're going to get trounced the next time you run into a smart one. To be very brief, you seem to think that libertarians believe, roughly, (1) "the world is simple, so we should have simple rules." Instead, you suggest: (2) "the world is complicated, so we should have complicated rules." But this claim is entirely unresponsive to: (3) "the world is complicated, so we should have simple rules." which is what most libertarians I know actually think. If you respond to (1) when your opponents are arguing for (3), you will not have productive conversations.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
umsm 13y ago
These people are investors. Investors usually look solely at the money instead of the effects or consequences.

Retric 13y ago

I think your missing a huge one. Taxes, hotels in major city's often send 10+$ a day to the local government. And before people complain about this that money often pays for things like museums and convention centers which is why many people are going to the city in the first place. Edit: NY get's 10$ on a one room 140$ hotel room stay as it's $2.00 per day per room* + 5.875% of the rent. http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/business/hotel.shtml http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/business/hotel.shtml

mahyarm 13y ago
So if NYC just made airbnb charge the 5.875% tax, most of their complaints would go away? And by increasing the hotel supply, hotel prices would go down to better match actual long term renting? Then it would create a more liquid housing market enabled by computerized markets? It would still allow casual renting of people's houses that way.
- mbreese 13y ago
  No, their complaints aren't strictly about the missing tax revenue. There are other regulations that would need to be addressed (health, safety, etc...). Hotels are a heavily regulated industry with good reason. Regulations are a protection mechanism to protect the city/neighborhood and the consumer. I think that there is a clear difference between renting out a room or occasionally renting your entire place, versus keeping a separate apartment strictly for renting out on AirBnB.