5 ms·

Elitist cack. I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client jus

by Jem 17y ago

Elitist cack. I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client just isn't possible (lack of admin rights, on someone else's computer, etc).

sho 17y ago
"Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "elitism". Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. When I see someone with a hotmail address I assume they do not know better. And on irc, when I see someone using mibbit, I assume they do not know how - or are too lazy - to set up IRC. If people can't put in this basic effort, why let them in? You can yell "elitism" all you want; I prefer to think of it as "rules of the club". Anyone can join the club, they just have to pass the first, very easy, test. What is wrong with that? And I think your use case for the service, as described in your anecdote, is likely to be quite atypical. I doubt the majority of Mibbit users just happened to be using it because they were using someone else's computer. You are the exception to the rule.
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  Personally, I'd prefer to see reasoned responses to sho's comments, rather than sniping remarks ("elitist cack"), and downvoting into oblivion. I tend to agree with sho, and alternative, reasoned viewpoints would be enlightening.
  - Jem 17y ago
    Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? I have no problem with basic aptitude tests. I have no problem with restricting a community to the technically literate. What I have a problem with is the assumption that anyone choosing to use X over Y is some kind of moron.
    - ankhmoop 17y ago
      Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? No, simply that as an initial barrier to entry for a technical community, "browsing to a web page" isn't very difficult and serves poorly as a first-pass filter.
      - axod 17y ago
        You should block email from webmail clients. I hear they're very easy to use.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
        Quite a few registration forms do block webmail addresses for reasons of abuse.
        axod 17y ago
        Registration forms that were built in the 90s, agreed.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
        No, I regularly find modern registration forms that won't accept mailinator or even hotmail addresses (and your service is probably more akin to mailinator than hotmail).
        pyre 17y ago
        webmail clients are only blocked 'due to abuse' because it's easy to make bots to register fake email addresses. But even that is not fool-proof. I remember that back when AOL on dial-up was my internet connection, the 'master' account could create multiple 'child' accounts. So even the ISP in that case could allow you to create a 'fake' email for the purpose of registration.
- abstractbill 17y ago
  people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client. Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty.
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client. First, it's considerably easier to find open web proxies than it is to find IRC-capable proxies, and Freenode runs proxy detection to catch use of IRC-capable proxies. Second, trusting Mibbit's IP address reporting is a tall order, equivalent to peering their IRC servers with Mibbit, as it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity. Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty. What 'trust' must be divested in end-user, per-user desktop IRC clients? Mibbit must be trusted to report user identity accurately, to not allow proxy connections, and to quickly respond to abuse while not causing freenode's volunteer's undue labor. Most importantly, freenode is privately owned and managed, it's not a public service and has no responsibility to provide service to Mibbit, especially if Mibbit causes a disproportionately sized administrative headache.
    - abstractbill 17y ago
      ...it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity. What conceivable reason would Mibbit have for doing that? Mibbit must be trusted to ... not allow proxy connections No, that's not true. Mibbit must be trusted merely to pass-on the correct IP. Then Freenode's existing proxy detection can handle the job of rejecting proxied connections. You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here, and suggesting that there's an incentive to give Freenode false information about users' IP addresses. Why?
- stcredzero 17y ago
  Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. What about actually looking at their contribution and judging it on its own merits? Isn't this just like judging someone's talk by how they look or judging a book by its cover? Isn't this the same principle as racial profiling? You take a factor which seems to have a correlation but which is incidental to what you're really trying to determine? For that matter, isn't it like, "that new VM can't be that much better. Aren't our VM guys really smart?" The really annoying thing about the Pointy Haired Bosses is their constant use of such heuristics in evaluating technology. It's when we see how their heuristics are maddeningly wrong when they dismay us the most. I propose that we techies would be better served by eschewing such sloppy heuristics and actually evaluating technology and technical expertise. We have big brains, so we can just reserve judgment on the rest until we have actual evidence.

by Jem 17y ago

sho 17y ago

"Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "elitism". Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. When I see someone with a hotmail address I assume they do not know better. And on irc, when I see someone using mibbit, I assume they do not know how - or are too lazy - to set up IRC. If people can't put in this basic effort, why let them in? You can yell "elitism" all you want; I prefer to think of it as "rules of the club". Anyone can join the club, they just have to pass the first, very easy, test. What is wrong with that? And I think your use case for the service, as described in your anecdote, is likely to be quite atypical. I doubt the majority of Mibbit users just happened to be using it because they were using someone else's computer. You are the exception to the rule.

ankhmoop 17y ago
Personally, I'd prefer to see reasoned responses to sho's comments, rather than sniping remarks ("elitist cack"), and downvoting into oblivion. I tend to agree with sho, and alternative, reasoned viewpoints would be enlightening.
- Jem 17y ago
  Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? I have no problem with basic aptitude tests. I have no problem with restricting a community to the technically literate. What I have a problem with is the assumption that anyone choosing to use X over Y is some kind of moron.
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? No, simply that as an initial barrier to entry for a technical community, "browsing to a web page" isn't very difficult and serves poorly as a first-pass filter.
    - axod 17y ago
      You should block email from webmail clients. I hear they're very easy to use.
      - ankhmoop 17y ago
        Quite a few registration forms do block webmail addresses for reasons of abuse.
        axod 17y ago
        Registration forms that were built in the 90s, agreed.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
        No, I regularly find modern registration forms that won't accept mailinator or even hotmail addresses (and your service is probably more akin to mailinator than hotmail).
      - pyre 17y ago
        webmail clients are only blocked 'due to abuse' because it's easy to make bots to register fake email addresses. But even that is not fool-proof. I remember that back when AOL on dial-up was my internet connection, the 'master' account could create multiple 'child' accounts. So even the ISP in that case could allow you to create a 'fake' email for the purpose of registration.
abstractbill 17y ago
people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client. Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty.
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client. First, it's considerably easier to find open web proxies than it is to find IRC-capable proxies, and Freenode runs proxy detection to catch use of IRC-capable proxies. Second, trusting Mibbit's IP address reporting is a tall order, equivalent to peering their IRC servers with Mibbit, as it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity. Incidentally, having personally written the software behind an irc network that's bigger than freenode (I wrote justin.tv's chat server, which has had a peak of more than 360k concurrent clients connected), I would trust Mibbit long before I would trust a bunch of other clients. MIRC, in particular, is plain nasty. What 'trust' must be divested in end-user, per-user desktop IRC clients? Mibbit must be trusted to report user identity accurately, to not allow proxy connections, and to quickly respond to abuse while not causing freenode's volunteer's undue labor. Most importantly, freenode is privately owned and managed, it's not a public service and has no responsibility to provide service to Mibbit, especially if Mibbit causes a disproportionately sized administrative headache.
  - abstractbill 17y ago
    ...it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity. What conceivable reason would Mibbit have for doing that? Mibbit must be trusted to ... not allow proxy connections No, that's not true. Mibbit must be trusted merely to pass-on the correct IP. Then Freenode's existing proxy detection can handle the job of rejecting proxied connections. You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here, and suggesting that there's an incentive to give Freenode false information about users' IP addresses. Why?
stcredzero 17y ago
Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. What about actually looking at their contribution and judging it on its own merits? Isn't this just like judging someone's talk by how they look or judging a book by its cover? Isn't this the same principle as racial profiling? You take a factor which seems to have a correlation but which is incidental to what you're really trying to determine? For that matter, isn't it like, "that new VM can't be that much better. Aren't our VM guys really smart?" The really annoying thing about the Pointy Haired Bosses is their constant use of such heuristics in evaluating technology. It's when we see how their heuristics are maddeningly wrong when they dismay us the most. I propose that we techies would be better served by eschewing such sloppy heuristics and actually evaluating technology and technical expertise. We have big brains, so we can just reserve judgment on the rest until we have actual evidence.