5 ms·

Agreed. Maybe it's not very nice, but I kind of think that anyone incapable of installing a proper IRC client probably shouldn't be using IRC in the first place

by sho 17y ago

Agreed. Maybe it's not very nice, but I kind of think that anyone incapable of installing a proper IRC client probably shouldn't be using IRC in the first place. The situation on, say, the ruby-talk mailing list is analogous; whenever you see a really, really stupid question, check out the submitter - chances are it's through one of the web interfaces to the ML. The necessity of installing and configuring an IRC client to use freenode is an example of a good barrier to entry.

davidw 17y ago
* Going http is a nice way to get around firewalls. Sure, I can tunnel through SSH to my server, but that is a bit harder and not everyone has a server to tunnel to. * Part of axod's idea, from what I gather, is simply to provide a nice chat system, that happens to have IRC as a backend. Would you say that people who can't install a proper nntp/smtp/whatever client shouldn't be allowed either? How 'bout twitter, to pick something popular? How about people who need help setting up an online store presence because they can't code it themselves? We owe the existence of this site to pg knocking down that particular barrier to entry. Now, the question of abusive users is another one, and one that deserves to be taken seriously. But I have no idea about how axod handles that side of things.
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  I wouldn't say shouldn't, but I would say that a slightly higher barrier to entry serves as a good first-pass filter for technically-oriented communities.
  - davidw 17y ago
    That's what I thought when mirc came out;-) People who didn't know how to use ircII were generally not as cool. You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad.
    - ankhmoop 17y ago
      You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad. I agree, but IRC is different and arguably antiquated technology. It doesn't require registration, operates in real-time, has no concept of reputation or community moderation. It's difficult to manage, and services that accidentally facilitate abuse make it more so.
      - abstractbill 17y ago
        It doesn't require registration More accurately, the protocol doesn't say anything about registration. It's dead simple to implement some form of registration outside of the IRC protocol, and then only allow registered users to connect.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
        Yes, which is not something that many communities on freenode are particularly interested in doing.
        axod 17y ago
        Channels were free to block mibbit, or require that users be identified to join the channel. In any event, this was never about Mibbit being used for abuse. It's about Freenodes own agenda.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
        We (as a channel) initially tried to avoid banning Mibbit wholesale, but that strategy failed. I imagine Freenode had similar issues at a larger scale. I can't say that any developers I associate with are unhappy that Mibbit was blocked. Specifically, on a technical channel: <me> Looks like Mibbit was blocked <user1> so sick of mibbit luzers <user2> nice! <user3> mothafuckers who can't be bothered to use an IRC client probably don't need to be on IRC <user1> had some random moron join #scheme and then start /msging me to ask where I was from It's difficult to find places to engage in community discussions with other high-quality developers without eventually being inundated with low-quality participants. The quoted response may be overtly rude, but the fact is, Mibbit brought exactly the type of users that we're on IRC (and freenode, specifically) to avoid.
  - pygy 17y ago
    Just remove Freenode from the drop down menu and have people to connect manually using the /server and /newserver commands. You'll get rid of all uneducated trolls. The educated ones may be the worst kind, but that's another matter.
Jem 17y ago
Elitist cack. I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client just isn't possible (lack of admin rights, on someone else's computer, etc).
- sho 17y ago
  "Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "elitism". Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. When I see someone with a hotmail address I assume they do not know better. And on irc, when I see someone using mibbit, I assume they do not know how - or are too lazy - to set up IRC. If people can't put in this basic effort, why let them in? You can yell "elitism" all you want; I prefer to think of it as "rules of the club". Anyone can join the club, they just have to pass the first, very easy, test. What is wrong with that? And I think your use case for the service, as described in your anecdote, is likely to be quite atypical. I doubt the majority of Mibbit users just happened to be using it because they were using someone else's computer. You are the exception to the rule.
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    Personally, I'd prefer to see reasoned responses to sho's comments, rather than sniping remarks ("elitist cack"), and downvoting into oblivion. I tend to agree with sho, and alternative, reasoned viewpoints would be enlightening.
    - Jem 17y ago
      Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? I have no problem with basic aptitude tests. I have no problem with restricting a community to the technically literate. What I have a problem with is the assumption that anyone choosing to use X over Y is some kind of moron.
stcredzero 17y ago
The necessity of installing and configuring an IRC client to use freenode is an example of a good barrier to entry. Doesn't strike me as good enough of a barrier. Then you still get a lot of idiots who think they are elite just because they can set up a client. Not sure that's improved the situation that much.

by sho 17y ago

davidw 17y ago

* Going http is a nice way to get around firewalls. Sure, I can tunnel through SSH to my server, but that is a bit harder and not everyone has a server to tunnel to. * Part of axod's idea, from what I gather, is simply to provide a nice chat system, that happens to have IRC as a backend. Would you say that people who can't install a proper nntp/smtp/whatever client shouldn't be allowed either? How 'bout twitter, to pick something popular? How about people who need help setting up an online store presence because they can't code it themselves? We owe the existence of this site to pg knocking down that particular barrier to entry. Now, the question of abusive users is another one, and one that deserves to be taken seriously. But I have no idea about how axod handles that side of things.

ankhmoop 17y ago
I wouldn't say shouldn't, but I would say that a slightly higher barrier to entry serves as a good first-pass filter for technically-oriented communities.
- davidw 17y ago
  That's what I thought when mirc came out;-) People who didn't know how to use ircII were generally not as cool. You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad.
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad. I agree, but IRC is different and arguably antiquated technology. It doesn't require registration, operates in real-time, has no concept of reputation or community moderation. It's difficult to manage, and services that accidentally facilitate abuse make it more so.
    - abstractbill 17y ago
      It doesn't require registration More accurately, the protocol doesn't say anything about registration. It's dead simple to implement some form of registration outside of the IRC protocol, and then only allow registered users to connect.
      - ankhmoop 17y ago
        Yes, which is not something that many communities on freenode are particularly interested in doing.
        axod 17y ago
        Channels were free to block mibbit, or require that users be identified to join the channel. In any event, this was never about Mibbit being used for abuse. It's about Freenodes own agenda.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
        We (as a channel) initially tried to avoid banning Mibbit wholesale, but that strategy failed. I imagine Freenode had similar issues at a larger scale. I can't say that any developers I associate with are unhappy that Mibbit was blocked. Specifically, on a technical channel: <me> Looks like Mibbit was blocked <user1> so sick of mibbit luzers <user2> nice! <user3> mothafuckers who can't be bothered to use an IRC client probably don't need to be on IRC <user1> had some random moron join #scheme and then start /msging me to ask where I was from It's difficult to find places to engage in community discussions with other high-quality developers without eventually being inundated with low-quality participants. The quoted response may be overtly rude, but the fact is, Mibbit brought exactly the type of users that we're on IRC (and freenode, specifically) to avoid.
- pygy 17y ago
  Just remove Freenode from the drop down menu and have people to connect manually using the /server and /newserver commands. You'll get rid of all uneducated trolls. The educated ones may be the worst kind, but that's another matter.

Jem 17y ago

Elitist cack. I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client just isn't possible (lack of admin rights, on someone else's computer, etc).

sho 17y ago
"Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "elitism". Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. When I see someone with a hotmail address I assume they do not know better. And on irc, when I see someone using mibbit, I assume they do not know how - or are too lazy - to set up IRC. If people can't put in this basic effort, why let them in? You can yell "elitism" all you want; I prefer to think of it as "rules of the club". Anyone can join the club, they just have to pass the first, very easy, test. What is wrong with that? And I think your use case for the service, as described in your anecdote, is likely to be quite atypical. I doubt the majority of Mibbit users just happened to be using it because they were using someone else's computer. You are the exception to the rule.
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  Personally, I'd prefer to see reasoned responses to sho's comments, rather than sniping remarks ("elitist cack"), and downvoting into oblivion. I tend to agree with sho, and alternative, reasoned viewpoints would be enlightening.
  - Jem 17y ago
    Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? I have no problem with basic aptitude tests. I have no problem with restricting a community to the technically literate. What I have a problem with is the assumption that anyone choosing to use X over Y is some kind of moron.

stcredzero 17y ago

The necessity of installing and configuring an IRC client to use freenode is an example of a good barrier to entry. Doesn't strike me as good enough of a barrier. Then you still get a lot of idiots who think they are elite just because they can set up a client. Not sure that's improved the situation that much.