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As someone who has been placed in the position of semi-regularly banning mibbit from freenode OSS project channels due to abusive users, I can't see how this is

As someone who has been placed in the position of semi-regularly banning mibbit from freenode OSS project channels due to abusive users, I can't see how this is a bad thing. The quality of user was exceptionally low, and "easy webchat" simply doesn't seem like a strong value proposition for the technical users that frequent the network.

sho 17y ago
Agreed. Maybe it's not very nice, but I kind of think that anyone incapable of installing a proper IRC client probably shouldn't be using IRC in the first place. The situation on, say, the ruby-talk mailing list is analogous; whenever you see a really, really stupid question, check out the submitter - chances are it's through one of the web interfaces to the ML. The necessity of installing and configuring an IRC client to use freenode is an example of a good barrier to entry.
- davidw 17y ago
  * Going http is a nice way to get around firewalls. Sure, I can tunnel through SSH to my server, but that is a bit harder and not everyone has a server to tunnel to. * Part of axod's idea, from what I gather, is simply to provide a nice chat system, that happens to have IRC as a backend. Would you say that people who can't install a proper nntp/smtp/whatever client shouldn't be allowed either? How 'bout twitter, to pick something popular? How about people who need help setting up an online store presence because they can't code it themselves? We owe the existence of this site to pg knocking down that particular barrier to entry. Now, the question of abusive users is another one, and one that deserves to be taken seriously. But I have no idea about how axod handles that side of things.
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    I wouldn't say shouldn't, but I would say that a slightly higher barrier to entry serves as a good first-pass filter for technically-oriented communities.
    - davidw 17y ago
      That's what I thought when mirc came out;-) People who didn't know how to use ircII were generally not as cool. You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad.
      - ankhmoop 17y ago
        You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad. I agree, but IRC is different and arguably antiquated technology. It doesn't require registration, operates in real-time, has no concept of reputation or community moderation. It's difficult to manage, and services that accidentally facilitate abuse make it more so.
        abstractbill 17y ago
        It doesn't require registration More accurately, the protocol doesn't say anything about registration. It's dead simple to implement some form of registration outside of the IRC protocol, and then only allow registered users to connect.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
        Yes, which is not something that many communities on freenode are particularly interested in doing.
        axod 17y ago
        Channels were free to block mibbit, or require that users be identified to join the channel. In any event, this was never about Mibbit being used for abuse. It's about Freenodes own agenda.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
- Jem 17y ago
  Elitist cack. I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client just isn't possible (lack of admin rights, on someone else's computer, etc).
  - sho 17y ago
    "Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "elitism". Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. When I see someone with a hotmail address I assume they do not know better. And on irc, when I see someone using mibbit, I assume they do not know how - or are too lazy - to set up IRC. If people can't put in this basic effort, why let them in? You can yell "elitism" all you want; I prefer to think of it as "rules of the club". Anyone can join the club, they just have to pass the first, very easy, test. What is wrong with that? And I think your use case for the service, as described in your anecdote, is likely to be quite atypical. I doubt the majority of Mibbit users just happened to be using it because they were using someone else's computer. You are the exception to the rule.
    - ankhmoop 17y ago
      Personally, I'd prefer to see reasoned responses to sho's comments, rather than sniping remarks ("elitist cack"), and downvoting into oblivion. I tend to agree with sho, and alternative, reasoned viewpoints would be enlightening.
      - Jem 17y ago
        Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? I have no problem with basic aptitude tests. I have no problem with restricting a community to the technically literate. What I have a problem with is the assumption that anyone choosing to use X over Y is some kind of moron.
- stcredzero 17y ago
  The necessity of installing and configuring an IRC client to use freenode is an example of a good barrier to entry. Doesn't strike me as good enough of a barrier. Then you still get a lot of idiots who think they are elite just because they can set up a client. Not sure that's improved the situation that much.
davidw 17y ago
> "easy webchat" simply doesn't seem like a strong value proposition for the technical users that frequent the network. Which is why they saw to it to create their own web chat...
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  Doesn't serve as counter argument for web chat providing strong value proposition, just that Freenode leveraged existing open source software to provide an alternative solution that they could directly manage. http://blog.freenode.net/2009/06/new-freenode-webchat-and-why-to-use-it/ http://blog.freenode.net/2009/06/new-freenode-webchat-and-wh...
  - abstractbill 17y ago
    In what way are they making it more secure? Mibbit already implemented the WEBIRC protocol - how does the Freenode client go further than that?
    - ankhmoop 17y ago
      Freenode manages their web client directly, which means that they can: 1) Manage it directly, immediately, and independently of any third party as to quickly respond to abuse. 2) Directly trust the web client's reporting of IP addresses, which is the primary form of unregistered user identity management on IRC. 3) Perform proxy detection on incoming web client connections, which they already use for non-web connections (http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#firewall http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#firewall)
      - abstractbill 17y ago
        (1) and (2) both boil-down to saying "we don't trust the operators of Mibbit to pass on the IP address accurately". Do you have examples of the IP address being inaccurate? (3) makes no sense, assuming you do trust the IP address, so doesn't add anything more than (1) and (2). You can already perform proxy-detection if you have WEBIRC and you trust the reported IP.
axod 17y ago
What was the quality of user like for mIRC?
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  About the same as any other client that makes it difficult to mask your identity via open web proxies.
  - mrtron 17y ago
    Are you claiming mIRC made it difficult to use a proxy? There has always been proxy settings available. I...know some people...that wrote scripts for mIRC that loaded thousands of bots on proxies. That was on an early Pentium with dialup too.
    - ankhmoop 17y ago
      Are you claiming mIRC made it difficult to use a web proxy? Since IRC traffic can't be conveyed via a web proxy, yes. =) There has always been proxy settings available. I...know some people...that wrote scripts for mIRC that loaded thousands of bots on proxies. That was on an early Pentium with dialup too. Absolutely, I used to abuse WinGate TCP proxies back in the day. Those eventually disappeared, and it's now much harder to find open TCP-capable (SOCKS, etc) proxies. To seal the deal, major IRC networks perform TCP proxy detection on incoming connections to check for open proxies operating on standard ports.
Annointed 17y ago
This is the most stupid thing i've read in this entire thread. I suppose you practice phrenology too.

sho 17y ago

Agreed. Maybe it's not very nice, but I kind of think that anyone incapable of installing a proper IRC client probably shouldn't be using IRC in the first place. The situation on, say, the ruby-talk mailing list is analogous; whenever you see a really, really stupid question, check out the submitter - chances are it's through one of the web interfaces to the ML. The necessity of installing and configuring an IRC client to use freenode is an example of a good barrier to entry.

davidw 17y ago
* Going http is a nice way to get around firewalls. Sure, I can tunnel through SSH to my server, but that is a bit harder and not everyone has a server to tunnel to. * Part of axod's idea, from what I gather, is simply to provide a nice chat system, that happens to have IRC as a backend. Would you say that people who can't install a proper nntp/smtp/whatever client shouldn't be allowed either? How 'bout twitter, to pick something popular? How about people who need help setting up an online store presence because they can't code it themselves? We owe the existence of this site to pg knocking down that particular barrier to entry. Now, the question of abusive users is another one, and one that deserves to be taken seriously. But I have no idea about how axod handles that side of things.
- ankhmoop 17y ago
  I wouldn't say shouldn't, but I would say that a slightly higher barrier to entry serves as a good first-pass filter for technically-oriented communities.
  - davidw 17y ago
    That's what I thought when mirc came out;-) People who didn't know how to use ircII were generally not as cool. You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad.
    - ankhmoop 17y ago
      You need something better, though. After all, it should be noted that discussion here is via a web based interface, and yet the conversation isn't that bad. I agree, but IRC is different and arguably antiquated technology. It doesn't require registration, operates in real-time, has no concept of reputation or community moderation. It's difficult to manage, and services that accidentally facilitate abuse make it more so.
      - abstractbill 17y ago
        It doesn't require registration More accurately, the protocol doesn't say anything about registration. It's dead simple to implement some form of registration outside of the IRC protocol, and then only allow registered users to connect.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
        Yes, which is not something that many communities on freenode are particularly interested in doing.
        axod 17y ago
        Channels were free to block mibbit, or require that users be identified to join the channel. In any event, this was never about Mibbit being used for abuse. It's about Freenodes own agenda.
        ankhmoop 17y ago
Jem 17y ago
Elitist cack. I can think of several times I've used mibbit to pop in to #startups (or another channel on another network) because installing an IRC client just isn't possible (lack of admin rights, on someone else's computer, etc).
- sho 17y ago
  "Elitist cack" Not at all. It's like a short, basic aptitude test before you're able to join a recreational sports team, or maybe a driving test. Just shows that you know the ropes at least a bit, you have at least basic competence. Remove that and people can just bomb in on anyone's conversation in real time, from any browser, no consequences, nothing. Is that really what you want? I object to your use of the word "elitism". Someone's basic technical competence, and the effort they've put in to do something, is a pretty reliable guide to the quality of their contribution, whatever it might be. When I see someone has a free blog on wordpress.com or what not, I instantly assume they either do not care or do not know how to set up their own system. When I see someone with a hotmail address I assume they do not know better. And on irc, when I see someone using mibbit, I assume they do not know how - or are too lazy - to set up IRC. If people can't put in this basic effort, why let them in? You can yell "elitism" all you want; I prefer to think of it as "rules of the club". Anyone can join the club, they just have to pass the first, very easy, test. What is wrong with that? And I think your use case for the service, as described in your anecdote, is likely to be quite atypical. I doubt the majority of Mibbit users just happened to be using it because they were using someone else's computer. You are the exception to the rule.
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    Personally, I'd prefer to see reasoned responses to sho's comments, rather than sniping remarks ("elitist cack"), and downvoting into oblivion. I tend to agree with sho, and alternative, reasoned viewpoints would be enlightening.
    - Jem 17y ago
      Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? I have no problem with basic aptitude tests. I have no problem with restricting a community to the technically literate. What I have a problem with is the assumption that anyone choosing to use X over Y is some kind of moron.
stcredzero 17y ago
The necessity of installing and configuring an IRC client to use freenode is an example of a good barrier to entry. Doesn't strike me as good enough of a barrier. Then you still get a lot of idiots who think they are elite just because they can set up a client. Not sure that's improved the situation that much.

davidw 17y ago

> "easy webchat" simply doesn't seem like a strong value proposition for the technical users that frequent the network. Which is why they saw to it to create their own web chat...

ankhmoop 17y ago
Doesn't serve as counter argument for web chat providing strong value proposition, just that Freenode leveraged existing open source software to provide an alternative solution that they could directly manage. http://blog.freenode.net/2009/06/new-freenode-webchat-and-why-to-use-it/ http://blog.freenode.net/2009/06/new-freenode-webchat-and-wh...
- abstractbill 17y ago
  In what way are they making it more secure? Mibbit already implemented the WEBIRC protocol - how does the Freenode client go further than that?
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    Freenode manages their web client directly, which means that they can: 1) Manage it directly, immediately, and independently of any third party as to quickly respond to abuse. 2) Directly trust the web client's reporting of IP addresses, which is the primary form of unregistered user identity management on IRC. 3) Perform proxy detection on incoming web client connections, which they already use for non-web connections (http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#firewall http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#firewall)
    - abstractbill 17y ago
      (1) and (2) both boil-down to saying "we don't trust the operators of Mibbit to pass on the IP address accurately". Do you have examples of the IP address being inaccurate? (3) makes no sense, assuming you do trust the IP address, so doesn't add anything more than (1) and (2). You can already perform proxy-detection if you have WEBIRC and you trust the reported IP.

axod 17y ago

What was the quality of user like for mIRC?

ankhmoop 17y ago
About the same as any other client that makes it difficult to mask your identity via open web proxies.
- mrtron 17y ago
  Are you claiming mIRC made it difficult to use a proxy? There has always been proxy settings available. I...know some people...that wrote scripts for mIRC that loaded thousands of bots on proxies. That was on an early Pentium with dialup too.
  - ankhmoop 17y ago
    Are you claiming mIRC made it difficult to use a web proxy? Since IRC traffic can't be conveyed via a web proxy, yes. =) There has always been proxy settings available. I...know some people...that wrote scripts for mIRC that loaded thousands of bots on proxies. That was on an early Pentium with dialup too. Absolutely, I used to abuse WinGate TCP proxies back in the day. Those eventually disappeared, and it's now much harder to find open TCP-capable (SOCKS, etc) proxies. To seal the deal, major IRC networks perform TCP proxy detection on incoming connections to check for open proxies operating on standard ports.

Annointed 17y ago

This is the most stupid thing i've read in this entire thread. I suppose you practice phrenology too.