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I'm honestly starting to regret choosing to learn Objective-C now. I am seriously considering learning Android development and ditching my Macbook / iPhone for

I'm honestly starting to regret choosing to learn Objective-C now. I am seriously considering learning Android development and ditching my Macbook / iPhone for a Nexus 5 and some sort of linux distro. People like me are making this whole situation significantly worse by contributing software to Apple's platform.

ekianjo 13y ago
Good thing you realize it now. Better now than later. Do take action if you are serious about the philosophical implications of your work. Anyway, we can see that even in the absence of Steve Jobs, Apple is certainly serious about "going nuclear on Android". They'll follow their former leader's thinking even beyond the grave. That's sad.
- serge2k 13y ago
  Probably because they can see what happened with PCs happening again. If they don't fight android with everything they have now then in 5 or 10 years they might not have the chance.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    Their market share is already going away progressively. There's way more Android devices being sold than Apple ones nowadays. They still have a clear edge on tablets, but for how long ? I can't see how Apple's growth can be sustainable unless they come on new segments (just like they did with the iPhone and the iPad in the first place). Fighting to the death on existing segments is not going to cut it in the long term.
  - Apocryphon 13y ago
    All of this assumes that Android is Windows and that another open source platform, such as Firefox OS or Ubuntu Touch, wouldn't be available to pose any challenge to Android. The mobile sphere is probably dynamic enough to support such changes. If the FOSS projects in mobile work hard enough now, they can eat into Android's market share, at least in the developing world. We shouldn't consider Android's position to be unshakeable.
    - Ygg2 13y ago
      Which is harder to nuke - a behemot of several billions dollars or a small non-profit company making browsers.
- waqf 13y ago
  "even" beyond the grave? They're onto the desperate measures now because without Steve they can't hit their revenue targets through actually making better products.
  - fpgeek 13y ago
    The groundwork for these measures was laid a long, long time ago. Many of the patents Apple has used against Android OEMs have gone back to the mid-90s - when Apple v Microsoft was recent history and their inability to get "patent-like protection" from UI copyrights was fresh in Apple's mind.
    - waqf 13y ago
      Yes, they have been prepared for this a long time. They could have launched this strategy any time they wanted. And I'm saying that the reason they're doing it now is because they're out of ideas.
pavpanchekha 13y ago
I can't speak for Android, but the Nexus phones are nice and Linux can make a stellar developer environment. What with Android no longer being an ugly step-child, it's a good time to make the switch.
cageface 13y ago
If it makes any difference I'd say Android development is mostly a lot more logical and sane than iOS, particularly now that Apple is shoving the tragic catastrophe of an API that is AutoLayout down everybody's throat. Don't let the fragmentation FUD scare you.
- anko 13y ago
  What do you mean by fragmentation FUD? Are you seriously saying that android isn't more fragmented than iOS? There are 5 resolutions to support in iOS. For most purposes, there are only 2 versions to support. What's the situation like on android? Just because you don't understand an API, doesn't mean you should trash it. Writing APIs is hard. Last I checked I couldn't have more than 1 map on a screen on android with massive trickery.
  - eropple 13y ago
    > What's the situation like on android? Screen resolution is almost meaningless on Android. Form factor is what matters. Phone (1280x720 being the floor for remotely new devices), small tablet, large tablet.
  - cageface 13y ago
    I've developed several iOS and Android applications professionally and I've actually spent more time dealing with device-specific issues on iOS than Android. It's true that you do have to deal with different form factors and resolutions in Android but the tools the Android SDK gives you to deal with these issues are so vastly superior to what Apple offers that it comes as a wash in typical cases. I've been writing software for a living for fifteen years now and I've yet to encounter a more opaque, complex, and unpredictable API than AutoLayout.
- _Simon 13y ago
  >Don't let the fragmentation FUD scare you. But we should all just accept that Google does no wrong by listening to a perennial Apple troll? Do me a favour! That's the problem with you open source terrorist; it all black and white. Google as just as bad as everyone else. They are not doing this out of altruism! If they were, we'd have the source for the Google apps on android, the search algorithms and web apps and they'd all be BSD, not the cancerous GPLv3! They really don't care about your silly ideologies. They care about revenue. That comes from advertising, which requires spying! For fuck sake man, THEY WORKED WITH THE NSA!!! They are pulling the same trick that Microsoft did with nascent IT departments; they convincing you that they are your friends. Hell, they already fucked consumers by giving power back to mobile companies. What is with you people? I frankly cannot believe the utterly childish language I'm seeing; especially from the likes of pg! I suppose you'll be telling me that Samsung are an example of a morally upstanding company next.
camus2 13y ago
It has nothing to do with you buying a mac. It's basically big corps trying to shoot down each other,it's war. It will not end google search,dont worry,worst case google will have to pay a few billion but they can afford it. Remember these corporations are using patents as nuclear dissuasion tools,we are not really in patent trolling here.IMHO Google is not better than the rest.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  Google paying a "few billions" will impact their company as a whole: a few billions lost, means these billions are not invested somewhere else, and patents may have other insidious consequences, such as restraining the internal innovation at Google because of past experiences with Patent trolls. And as I said in another post, Google has a different stance on patents. So far, they pledged not to use them in an aggressive way. Maybe they'll change their mind in the long run, but they have not been very aggressive in that field so far.
- pedalpete 13y ago
  However, what the original commenter is saying is that he is trying to make an impact against this action by not giving his money to the companies that are taking this action. Your attitude suggesting that company revenues have nothing to do with the actions of the company is simply suggesting that people don't vote with their dollars, or maybe that they shouldn't, which is wrong. Corporations exist to make money, if they make decisions you disagree with, you should not spend your money on their products. You should do what you can to let them know that reason x,y,z is the reason you're not spending your money with them. Enough of a groundswell and that will change. Interestingly in this case, if a large enough mass of people bought Android phones specifically because of this lawsuit, that is a double-wammy for Apple and Microsoft in the mobile space, and it gives Google a few dollars to pay for the patent suit.
chasing 13y ago
Well, that'll show 'em. But seriously: This isn't an issue that'll be solved by buying one product over another. (I mean, if I understand correctly, this could impact your ability to actually get your hands on a Nexus 5 (or later) device if litigation either prevents them from being produced or makes them too expensive for Google to make. That's the whole point, right? To take the power to choose financial winners and losers out of the hands of the market. To make your decision matter less. That's one big reason it's shitty: It distorts markets regardless what you as the consumer want.) It's an issue with how our government treats patents like this. Buy your Apple product if that's the best one for you. Enjoy building with Objective C. Or work with Google's products. Whichever you want. But. If you're interested in changing this situation, I'd try recommend trying to get the attention of the one organization that really holds the power, here: The United States government.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > If you're interested in changing this situation, I'd try recommend trying to get the attention of the one organization that really holds the power, here: The United States government. Well it's certainly easier to vote with your dollars than to change the state of politics. Politics are relatively stable in short-mid run, and even a large group of citizen has very little power to change that unless they get representatives of their own to run for and win elections with a clear no-more-patent-bullshit agenda. Net: it's not going to happen any time soon.
bstar77 13y ago
This comment is ridiculous. The big players have been playing a patent chess game since 2007. Don't forget Google bid for these patents as well and it's completely ignorant to think they would have not exercised their billion $+ purchase. Google took the initiative a year ago with their Motorola patent portfolio, Samsung took the initiative with their FRAND patents, Apple took the initiative with their design portfolio, Microsoft took the initiative by funding SCO and suing android OEMs and now this conglomerate is taking the initiative with the Nortel patents. This is a war with many players willing to stifle the industry until this gets sorted out. All players are responsible, but this terrible system requires that you get involved and are proactive in protecting your intellectual property. Go sell your mac and get an ultra book. Go learn Java and ditch obj-c. But do it because you prefer those products, not because you think you are taking the moral high ground.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  If I remember correctly, Google has always said they would only use these patents in a defensive manner if they ever get them. http://www.androidcentral.com/google-pledges-only-use-open-source-related-patents-defensively http://www.androidcentral.com/google-pledges-only-use-open-s... That's very different from Apple or Microsoft.
  - bstar77 13y ago
    I disagree, microsoft tried to destroy linux by coercing companies to pay a bogus linux tax. Microsoft also footed the bill for SCO's case against Linux. MS' record is atrocious here. Motorola Mobility sued apple in 2010. Just last month Motorola filed a motion to reopen their case against Apple. Again, all of these companies are deeply involved in this game of patents.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      > Motorola Mobility sued apple in 2010. As far as I know Google acquired Motorola Mobility in 2011. So they had nothing to do with the original suit. As for last month's one, I don't know about the details. > I disagree, microsoft tried to destroy linux Where did I say Microsoft was clean ?
eonil 13y ago
Go and do it right now. Experience them yourself. And experience Android yourself. Don't have a Android device? Don't worry, there's an emulator. And let's see whether you can say after that. Personally, I lost all the technical/engineering respect on Google people after that.

ekianjo 13y ago

Good thing you realize it now. Better now than later. Do take action if you are serious about the philosophical implications of your work. Anyway, we can see that even in the absence of Steve Jobs, Apple is certainly serious about "going nuclear on Android". They'll follow their former leader's thinking even beyond the grave. That's sad.

serge2k 13y ago
Probably because they can see what happened with PCs happening again. If they don't fight android with everything they have now then in 5 or 10 years they might not have the chance.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  Their market share is already going away progressively. There's way more Android devices being sold than Apple ones nowadays. They still have a clear edge on tablets, but for how long ? I can't see how Apple's growth can be sustainable unless they come on new segments (just like they did with the iPhone and the iPad in the first place). Fighting to the death on existing segments is not going to cut it in the long term.
- Apocryphon 13y ago
  All of this assumes that Android is Windows and that another open source platform, such as Firefox OS or Ubuntu Touch, wouldn't be available to pose any challenge to Android. The mobile sphere is probably dynamic enough to support such changes. If the FOSS projects in mobile work hard enough now, they can eat into Android's market share, at least in the developing world. We shouldn't consider Android's position to be unshakeable.
  - Ygg2 13y ago
    Which is harder to nuke - a behemot of several billions dollars or a small non-profit company making browsers.
waqf 13y ago
"even" beyond the grave? They're onto the desperate measures now because without Steve they can't hit their revenue targets through actually making better products.
- fpgeek 13y ago
  The groundwork for these measures was laid a long, long time ago. Many of the patents Apple has used against Android OEMs have gone back to the mid-90s - when Apple v Microsoft was recent history and their inability to get "patent-like protection" from UI copyrights was fresh in Apple's mind.
  - waqf 13y ago
    Yes, they have been prepared for this a long time. They could have launched this strategy any time they wanted. And I'm saying that the reason they're doing it now is because they're out of ideas.

pavpanchekha 13y ago

I can't speak for Android, but the Nexus phones are nice and Linux can make a stellar developer environment. What with Android no longer being an ugly step-child, it's a good time to make the switch.

cageface 13y ago

If it makes any difference I'd say Android development is mostly a lot more logical and sane than iOS, particularly now that Apple is shoving the tragic catastrophe of an API that is AutoLayout down everybody's throat. Don't let the fragmentation FUD scare you.

anko 13y ago
What do you mean by fragmentation FUD? Are you seriously saying that android isn't more fragmented than iOS? There are 5 resolutions to support in iOS. For most purposes, there are only 2 versions to support. What's the situation like on android? Just because you don't understand an API, doesn't mean you should trash it. Writing APIs is hard. Last I checked I couldn't have more than 1 map on a screen on android with massive trickery.
- eropple 13y ago
  > What's the situation like on android? Screen resolution is almost meaningless on Android. Form factor is what matters. Phone (1280x720 being the floor for remotely new devices), small tablet, large tablet.
- cageface 13y ago
  I've developed several iOS and Android applications professionally and I've actually spent more time dealing with device-specific issues on iOS than Android. It's true that you do have to deal with different form factors and resolutions in Android but the tools the Android SDK gives you to deal with these issues are so vastly superior to what Apple offers that it comes as a wash in typical cases. I've been writing software for a living for fifteen years now and I've yet to encounter a more opaque, complex, and unpredictable API than AutoLayout.
_Simon 13y ago
>Don't let the fragmentation FUD scare you. But we should all just accept that Google does no wrong by listening to a perennial Apple troll? Do me a favour! That's the problem with you open source terrorist; it all black and white. Google as just as bad as everyone else. They are not doing this out of altruism! If they were, we'd have the source for the Google apps on android, the search algorithms and web apps and they'd all be BSD, not the cancerous GPLv3! They really don't care about your silly ideologies. They care about revenue. That comes from advertising, which requires spying! For fuck sake man, THEY WORKED WITH THE NSA!!! They are pulling the same trick that Microsoft did with nascent IT departments; they convincing you that they are your friends. Hell, they already fucked consumers by giving power back to mobile companies. What is with you people? I frankly cannot believe the utterly childish language I'm seeing; especially from the likes of pg! I suppose you'll be telling me that Samsung are an example of a morally upstanding company next.

camus2 13y ago

It has nothing to do with you buying a mac. It's basically big corps trying to shoot down each other,it's war. It will not end google search,dont worry,worst case google will have to pay a few billion but they can afford it. Remember these corporations are using patents as nuclear dissuasion tools,we are not really in patent trolling here.IMHO Google is not better than the rest.

ekianjo 13y ago
Google paying a "few billions" will impact their company as a whole: a few billions lost, means these billions are not invested somewhere else, and patents may have other insidious consequences, such as restraining the internal innovation at Google because of past experiences with Patent trolls. And as I said in another post, Google has a different stance on patents. So far, they pledged not to use them in an aggressive way. Maybe they'll change their mind in the long run, but they have not been very aggressive in that field so far.
pedalpete 13y ago
However, what the original commenter is saying is that he is trying to make an impact against this action by not giving his money to the companies that are taking this action. Your attitude suggesting that company revenues have nothing to do with the actions of the company is simply suggesting that people don't vote with their dollars, or maybe that they shouldn't, which is wrong. Corporations exist to make money, if they make decisions you disagree with, you should not spend your money on their products. You should do what you can to let them know that reason x,y,z is the reason you're not spending your money with them. Enough of a groundswell and that will change. Interestingly in this case, if a large enough mass of people bought Android phones specifically because of this lawsuit, that is a double-wammy for Apple and Microsoft in the mobile space, and it gives Google a few dollars to pay for the patent suit.

chasing 13y ago

Well, that'll show 'em. But seriously: This isn't an issue that'll be solved by buying one product over another. (I mean, if I understand correctly, this could impact your ability to actually get your hands on a Nexus 5 (or later) device if litigation either prevents them from being produced or makes them too expensive for Google to make. That's the whole point, right? To take the power to choose financial winners and losers out of the hands of the market. To make your decision matter less. That's one big reason it's shitty: It distorts markets regardless what you as the consumer want.) It's an issue with how our government treats patents like this. Buy your Apple product if that's the best one for you. Enjoy building with Objective C. Or work with Google's products. Whichever you want. But. If you're interested in changing this situation, I'd try recommend trying to get the attention of the one organization that really holds the power, here: The United States government.

ekianjo 13y ago
> If you're interested in changing this situation, I'd try recommend trying to get the attention of the one organization that really holds the power, here: The United States government. Well it's certainly easier to vote with your dollars than to change the state of politics. Politics are relatively stable in short-mid run, and even a large group of citizen has very little power to change that unless they get representatives of their own to run for and win elections with a clear no-more-patent-bullshit agenda. Net: it's not going to happen any time soon.

bstar77 13y ago

This comment is ridiculous. The big players have been playing a patent chess game since 2007. Don't forget Google bid for these patents as well and it's completely ignorant to think they would have not exercised their billion $+ purchase. Google took the initiative a year ago with their Motorola patent portfolio, Samsung took the initiative with their FRAND patents, Apple took the initiative with their design portfolio, Microsoft took the initiative by funding SCO and suing android OEMs and now this conglomerate is taking the initiative with the Nortel patents. This is a war with many players willing to stifle the industry until this gets sorted out. All players are responsible, but this terrible system requires that you get involved and are proactive in protecting your intellectual property. Go sell your mac and get an ultra book. Go learn Java and ditch obj-c. But do it because you prefer those products, not because you think you are taking the moral high ground.

ekianjo 13y ago
If I remember correctly, Google has always said they would only use these patents in a defensive manner if they ever get them. http://www.androidcentral.com/google-pledges-only-use-open-source-related-patents-defensively http://www.androidcentral.com/google-pledges-only-use-open-s... That's very different from Apple or Microsoft.
- bstar77 13y ago
  I disagree, microsoft tried to destroy linux by coercing companies to pay a bogus linux tax. Microsoft also footed the bill for SCO's case against Linux. MS' record is atrocious here. Motorola Mobility sued apple in 2010. Just last month Motorola filed a motion to reopen their case against Apple. Again, all of these companies are deeply involved in this game of patents.
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > Motorola Mobility sued apple in 2010. As far as I know Google acquired Motorola Mobility in 2011. So they had nothing to do with the original suit. As for last month's one, I don't know about the details. > I disagree, microsoft tried to destroy linux Where did I say Microsoft was clean ?

eonil 13y ago

Go and do it right now. Experience them yourself. And experience Android yourself. Don't have a Android device? Don't worry, there's an emulator. And let's see whether you can say after that. Personally, I lost all the technical/engineering respect on Google people after that.