6 ms·

From what are you ducking and running?

by flippyhead 13y ago

augbot 13y ago
hipsters?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jspaur 13y ago
I'm assuming he means the Pike/Pine alley and Pioneer square, sadly famous for aggressive panhandling, unruly 'youth', and shootings. I live in and work in downtown (haven't driven in months) and it's def. getting a little more 'rough' by the month. Especially Westlake area. (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021614421_downtowncrime1xml.html http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021614421_downtowncr...)
- dubfan 13y ago
  Most of those complaints are from people who haven't lived in Seattle long enough to know those areas have been problem spots for at least 20 years. My father worked downtown in the early/mid-80s and says it was exactly the same then, if not a little bit worse. Not that that excuses the problem. Also, the Seattle PD is absolutely petrified of doing anything that might incur the wrath of the Department of Justice. Blaming McGinn for the street people is like blaming him for I-5 traffic: it's been a problem before, and it will continue to be a problem until something very drastic happens (and in the case of street people, it will take something unpalatable to Seattle's NIMBY/sensitive electorate)
  - jspaur 13y ago
    Crime is down nationally since the 80s. So for things to be the same, or only a little better says a lot. I completely agree that SPD is petrified. I've live/worked in downtown Seattle for a while - and while I think some of the 'scaryness' is overblown, it's hard not to see a change in the trend over the past few years.
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      I don't know that I'd call it "petrified" -- I believe the common term is "de-policing." It's a passive-aggressive way for SPD to deal with leadership that they don't respect. SPD has an incredibly strong union, which is where the real problem lies IMHO. A bad cop almost literally has to murder somebody before they can fire him. DOJ took note of the resulting abuses, but of course they aren't interested in going toe-to-toe with the union, and neither is the mayor. It's a complex problem but it stems from a fairly ordinary failure of leadership, and that particular buck stops in the mayor's office.
- era86 13y ago
  Can confirm this. Fiancee works in Pioneer Square and I worry every time she has to work late... And Westlake is looking a lot more like Portland every year (as far as homeless youth go).
  - wehadfun 13y ago
    Homeless youth? Are they homeless or just kids hanging out?
    - jspaur 13y ago
      Considering a lot of them are there during school hours and you'll see the same ones there sleeping with tarps at night - I think its safe to say homeless. Probably better to say 'young adults' though - Seattle YouthCare (http://www.youthcare.org/ http://www.youthcare.org/) does a great job with the younger groups.
  - era86 13y ago
    I apologize, this is an assumption I'm making. I guess I meant the youth that hang out all over Westlake, especially later at night, resemble the homeless youth around Portland.
- vkou 13y ago
  If you want to find a scapegoat for panhandling, I'd first turn to the recession... And the anemic social/medical/mental safety net in this country.
  - jspaur 13y ago
    Not looking for a scapegoat, only a solution. And I lived here before the recession/GFC. I'd completely agree that the "social/medical/mental safety net in this country" is a major problem.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    > "If you want to find a scapegoat for panhandling, I'd first turn to the recession..." How many of those homeless people are on the streets because they lost their factory jobs and the bank kicked them out of their McMansion? I am guessing very few. The recession didn't make these people heroin addicts or mentally ill. The homeless people that make people concerned about walking around downtown Seattle during the evening aren't the "couchsurfing until I can find a new job" kind of homeless people. Pointing at the state of healthcare, mental or otherwise, hits the nail on the head. That is a problem larger than Seattle though.
- gisenberg 13y ago
  I used to work at the intersection of 2nd and Pine, where a stabbing took place right outside of work. Most of the violence in the area being gang-related isn't exactly the best reassurance of your safety.
BlackDeath3 13y ago
I'm going to guess "rain".
potatolicious 13y ago
Crackheads, the homeless, and a particularly loud (and occasionally violent) group of youth that are constantly at the corner of 3rd and Pike. Persistent (though not apocalyptic levels of) gun crime. Downtown Seattle can be a bit rough. I wouldn't lay it squarely at the feet of the mayor though - a lot of it traces back to city planning gone disastrously wrong. Just a few off the top of my head: - the southern end of downtown is strictly commercial. Little to no mixed zoning here, meaning that as soon as 5pm rolls by the entire area is a ghost town. If you're there past 6-7pm you will see that the homeless and addicts move in to fill the void. There is no residential or leisure traffic to balance this out. This is US-style single-purpose urban zoning run amok. Vast portions of the urban core is entirely idle after work hours. - downtown Seattle isn't a cultural or entertainment core, unlike the downtowns of most cities. The actual food scene, nightlife scene, music scene, etc, are in surrounding neighborhoods like Capitol Hill, Ballard, Fremont, etc. This contributes to low foot traffic after work hours, which contributes to higher crime and simultaneously a magnified perception of danger. - poor urban planning decisions meant an explosion in large-scale development without sufficient requirement for retail frontage. Lots of buildings that take up the entire block with little to no ground-floor retail, making it a pedestrian dead zone and contributing to the feeling of walking down a shady alley no matter where you are. See: much of Belltown, where the declared intent was to produce a walkable neighborhood full of restaurants and nightlife - except few residential buildings wanted to play host to them. This has resulted in little pockets of activity with vast stretches of nothingness in between them.
- kevin_rubyhouse 13y ago
  I live in Redmond/Bellevue and this is very interesting. Do you know anywhere that I can read more about this?
  - aaronbrethorst 13y ago
    Justin Carder from CHS talks periodically about 3rd and Pine even though it's off his 'beat.' That street corner is a mess but it's been a mess for quite a while and it's obvious that stepped-up police presence alone won't address the problems there, or they'd already be fixed.

From what are you ducking and running?

augbot 13y ago

hipsters?

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jspaur 13y ago

I'm assuming he means the Pike/Pine alley and Pioneer square, sadly famous for aggressive panhandling, unruly 'youth', and shootings. I live in and work in downtown (haven't driven in months) and it's def. getting a little more 'rough' by the month. Especially Westlake area. (http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021614421_downtowncrime1xml.html http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2021614421_downtowncr...)

dubfan 13y ago
Most of those complaints are from people who haven't lived in Seattle long enough to know those areas have been problem spots for at least 20 years. My father worked downtown in the early/mid-80s and says it was exactly the same then, if not a little bit worse. Not that that excuses the problem. Also, the Seattle PD is absolutely petrified of doing anything that might incur the wrath of the Department of Justice. Blaming McGinn for the street people is like blaming him for I-5 traffic: it's been a problem before, and it will continue to be a problem until something very drastic happens (and in the case of street people, it will take something unpalatable to Seattle's NIMBY/sensitive electorate)
- jspaur 13y ago
  Crime is down nationally since the 80s. So for things to be the same, or only a little better says a lot. I completely agree that SPD is petrified. I've live/worked in downtown Seattle for a while - and while I think some of the 'scaryness' is overblown, it's hard not to see a change in the trend over the past few years.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    I don't know that I'd call it "petrified" -- I believe the common term is "de-policing." It's a passive-aggressive way for SPD to deal with leadership that they don't respect. SPD has an incredibly strong union, which is where the real problem lies IMHO. A bad cop almost literally has to murder somebody before they can fire him. DOJ took note of the resulting abuses, but of course they aren't interested in going toe-to-toe with the union, and neither is the mayor. It's a complex problem but it stems from a fairly ordinary failure of leadership, and that particular buck stops in the mayor's office.
era86 13y ago
Can confirm this. Fiancee works in Pioneer Square and I worry every time she has to work late... And Westlake is looking a lot more like Portland every year (as far as homeless youth go).
- wehadfun 13y ago
  Homeless youth? Are they homeless or just kids hanging out?
  - jspaur 13y ago
    Considering a lot of them are there during school hours and you'll see the same ones there sleeping with tarps at night - I think its safe to say homeless. Probably better to say 'young adults' though - Seattle YouthCare (http://www.youthcare.org/ http://www.youthcare.org/) does a great job with the younger groups.
- era86 13y ago
  I apologize, this is an assumption I'm making. I guess I meant the youth that hang out all over Westlake, especially later at night, resemble the homeless youth around Portland.
vkou 13y ago
If you want to find a scapegoat for panhandling, I'd first turn to the recession... And the anemic social/medical/mental safety net in this country.
- jspaur 13y ago
  Not looking for a scapegoat, only a solution. And I lived here before the recession/GFC. I'd completely agree that the "social/medical/mental safety net in this country" is a major problem.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > "If you want to find a scapegoat for panhandling, I'd first turn to the recession..." How many of those homeless people are on the streets because they lost their factory jobs and the bank kicked them out of their McMansion? I am guessing very few. The recession didn't make these people heroin addicts or mentally ill. The homeless people that make people concerned about walking around downtown Seattle during the evening aren't the "couchsurfing until I can find a new job" kind of homeless people. Pointing at the state of healthcare, mental or otherwise, hits the nail on the head. That is a problem larger than Seattle though.
gisenberg 13y ago
I used to work at the intersection of 2nd and Pine, where a stabbing took place right outside of work. Most of the violence in the area being gang-related isn't exactly the best reassurance of your safety.

BlackDeath3 13y ago

I'm going to guess "rain".

potatolicious 13y ago

Crackheads, the homeless, and a particularly loud (and occasionally violent) group of youth that are constantly at the corner of 3rd and Pike. Persistent (though not apocalyptic levels of) gun crime. Downtown Seattle can be a bit rough. I wouldn't lay it squarely at the feet of the mayor though - a lot of it traces back to city planning gone disastrously wrong. Just a few off the top of my head: - the southern end of downtown is strictly commercial. Little to no mixed zoning here, meaning that as soon as 5pm rolls by the entire area is a ghost town. If you're there past 6-7pm you will see that the homeless and addicts move in to fill the void. There is no residential or leisure traffic to balance this out. This is US-style single-purpose urban zoning run amok. Vast portions of the urban core is entirely idle after work hours. - downtown Seattle isn't a cultural or entertainment core, unlike the downtowns of most cities. The actual food scene, nightlife scene, music scene, etc, are in surrounding neighborhoods like Capitol Hill, Ballard, Fremont, etc. This contributes to low foot traffic after work hours, which contributes to higher crime and simultaneously a magnified perception of danger. - poor urban planning decisions meant an explosion in large-scale development without sufficient requirement for retail frontage. Lots of buildings that take up the entire block with little to no ground-floor retail, making it a pedestrian dead zone and contributing to the feeling of walking down a shady alley no matter where you are. See: much of Belltown, where the declared intent was to produce a walkable neighborhood full of restaurants and nightlife - except few residential buildings wanted to play host to them. This has resulted in little pockets of activity with vast stretches of nothingness in between them.

kevin_rubyhouse 13y ago
I live in Redmond/Bellevue and this is very interesting. Do you know anywhere that I can read more about this?
- aaronbrethorst 13y ago
  Justin Carder from CHS talks periodically about 3rd and Pine even though it's off his 'beat.' That street corner is a mess but it's been a mess for quite a while and it's obvious that stepped-up police presence alone won't address the problems there, or they'd already be fixed.