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"If someone in school would have explained to me that coding could reach millions directly or indirectly and make their lives better, it would’ve sparked my int

"If someone in school would have explained to me that coding could reach millions directly or indirectly and make their lives better, it would’ve sparked my interest much sooner." - completely agree, programming was not introduced to me correctly until after college. Even if public schools don't have the resources to hire a teacher who is, by training, a programmer, there is no reason why students can't be exposed to things like Codecademy, Coursera, and Udacity. Online courses with syllabi could even be offered to students (a teacher could simply verify that the work was being completed and that the code works) as replacements for the joke of a "computers" requirement that I had to complete, where the final was just making a PowerPoint, and half the class just played Oregon Trail during. I don't think "everyone should code!" should be the goal, it should be that "everyone should be truly exposed to coding while in school." Now that I am talking about it, there are so many basic things that people should be introduced to in public school, some of which used to be mandatory (I believe). Things like basic accounting/personal finance, some intro level cooking course (make sure people can boil water and follow a simple recipe), some kind of shop like class, etc. California has a "visual arts" requirement that is much less useful to most students over the course of their life than most of the courses I just named. Visual arts are great, but time is limited, and prioritization should go to preparation for life in the real world.

the_watcher 13y ago
Going back to the accounting/personal finance piece, I did a year of law school, and it was absolutely stunning how many of my classmates had no idea what compound interest was (more insane given that most of them were debt funding their education with high interest, non-dischargeable loans that now compound immediately upon taking them out), or that opportunity cost was something they should have considered when evaluating the cost of school.
- frogpelt 13y ago
  It is the parents' job to make sure their child is being educated. If the school is doing a poor job, the parent should switch schools or supplement the education at home. I say this because I think people used more common sense about money 100 years ago. They likely learned it at home, not at school.
  - Bsharp 13y ago
    They probably did. Parents assume that their kids will learn anything they need to know in school, rather than ensure their kids know something by teaching it themselves.
  - the_watcher 13y ago
    >> I say this because I think people used more common sense about money 100 years ago. They likely learned it at home, not at school. This is true, but 100 years ago, compulsory public education until ~age 18 was much less common, people simply had less money, and credit was not ubiquitous the way it is now. I agree parents need to take responsibility for filling in the gaps of school, but that doesn't mean you can't also advocate for the schools filling those gaps themselves.
Bsharp 13y ago
That's a response I use whenever people tell me compulsory schooling as it exists now is essential so kids can function in the real world. You learn little-to-no real-world skills in a basic K-12 (US) curriculum. If you'll let me put my tin foil hat on, I would say its possible that personal finance isn't taught deliberately - banks want people to be worse at money and debt management so they can make more money off them.
- the_watcher 13y ago
  >> I would say its possible that personal finance isn't taught deliberately - banks want people to be worse at money and debt management so they can make more money off them Public education seems to me to be one of the few sectors that big banks exert little to no influence on. The main problem is cyclical, many teachers and administrators never got this training, and so aren't well equipped to teach and advocate for it. Much of education curriculum setting (in terms of what classes to teach) is driven by union demand, so a lack of accounting/finance teachers leads to less advocacy, while a surplus of visual arts and music teachers leads to substantial demand for those classes.
  - markkanof 13y ago
    I agree with your point about it being a cyclical problem, but have to disagree with the part about supply and demand. Much of what has to be taught in public schools is dictated by government policy (both state and federal). Art and music classes are typically some of the first things to be cut when there are budget constraints, so a surplus of those types of teachers leads to a surplus of unemployed teachers (or retraining for a different subject), not a surplus of those classes being offered.
    - the_watcher 13y ago
      "a surplus of those types of teachers leads to a surplus of unemployed teachers." Yet, when budgets increase, these are the first to return, and the useful classes are never offered. I'm not arguing that art and music teachers end up unemployed first, but their existence is still what drives the lobbying for these programs. Government education policy (at the curriculum, not budget level), is substantially influenced by teachers unions.
tsumnia 13y ago
"...where the final was just making a PowerPoint, and half the class just played Oregon Trail during." I honestly think this is the biggest issue and the main motivator for teaching coding. The issue is our computer courses are designed to be 'How to Learn Microsoft Office on Microsoft Windows', any deviation from THAT curriculum already punishes the student. Then, its re-enforced by repitive 'this is how you bold' work. Every computer teacher says they throw in some extra 'real' work, but why can't THAT be what they're learning. A quick Google search shows this is the Intro to Computers description: "This course introduces computer concepts, including fundamental functions and operations of the computer. Topics include identification of hardware components, basic computer operations, security issues, and use of software applications. Upon completion, students should be able to demonstrate an understanding of the role and function of computers and use the computer to solve problems." Somehow this has become MS Office. Graphic art courses don't teach 'Photoshop', they teach you art using Photoshop. I feel the issue is many Intro to Computer courses are taught the opposite.
- bluedino 13y ago
  >> Then, its re-enforced by repitive 'this is how you bold' work I remember 10th grade computer class. We got a printed piece of paper, you had to center, bold, and italicize things. Anyone who had used a computer to type a paper before completed it in about 5 minutes while the rest of the class struggled. >> Every computer teacher says they throw in some extra 'real' work, but why can't THAT be what they're learning. Same teacher tried an HTML assignment later that semester. Center, bold, italicize somethings and place an image, make a link. Almost none of the kids finished it, and the 2-3 who knew HTML completed it in 5 minutes.
  - the_watcher 13y ago
    Things like Codecademy should make things like HTML assignments easier. Have the kids complete a few Codecademy lessons, then give the assignment.
  - tsumnia 13y ago
    I'm not saying formatting a document isn't important, it is. But the degree I'm required to teach, or when I tutored is grad school, is a bit overboard. We have an entire chapter on MS Office integration where they'll learn to export an Access query to an Excel spreadsheet so they can 'integrate' that with a Powerpoint presentation. Does it force them to study? Yes. Is it an activity they'll ever need? No. My point falls more in line with the Intro to Computer courses are too platform dependent, so we have to teach the platform, not the activity. Instead of teaching them how to use an Internet Explorer Web Slice, I'd rather have it focus on being able to adequately solve a problem through search engines. I <i>can</i> do it, but then I'm chastised for being the nail that sticks out. At least on your last point, I actually think there should be a placement test administered to students to determine their computers skills, much like Math and Foreign Language. If you don't know how to turn a computer on, get placed in a pre-Intro course, so-so students can fall into the basics (not MS Office) and those that will sleep through and Ace the course can be CLEP'd out. The issue is, how would you create a placement test that tests ability to 'use a computer' vs. MS Office. Anyone who's technically savvy (including non-IT people) know how to 'use a computer', which is exactly what I feel current Intro to Computer courses do not teach.
JackFr 13y ago
Regarding the 'Visual Art' requirement -- in junior high and high school we hat 'Art' and 'Music' classes which were a monumental waste of time. They taught neither history or technical skills, and ended up being 'Appreciation' courses which left you with neither any skills, nor any really knowledge of the history. I think it would have been much more useful to teach singing and drawing, both of which are teachable, useful and would lead to a fuller, richer life.
- the_watcher 13y ago
  I played saxophone in middle school, which wasn't a total waste, but I quit after two years to fit Spanish into my schedule (which I then didn't learn because the instruction was so bad). Drawing, cooking, shop, accounting, intro to programming, etc. would have all been more applicable to a productive life.
markkanof 13y ago
I recently decided to stop talking about teaching kids to code, and actually do it. I don't plan to quite my job as a developer to become a full time teacher, so instead I started an after school program. This was made a lot easier because my wife is a high school teacher. We started a technology club at her high school with the dual goals of showing kids really interesting things that can be done with technology as well as actually teaching them some coding skills. We've only been running for a few weeks but we've got about ten kids showing up every week. So far I've shown them some demos of things like using Google maps in your own software, making your own maps with TileMill, browser based games with Crafty, and phone call and SMS stuff with Twilio. They seemed to respond positively to all the demos but were very excited about the Twilio demo. I'm not surprised, because I also thought the ability to type something into a text area in the browser and then receive a phone call with that text read to me, is pretty sweet! Most recently we started doing some basic HTML. Pages, images, links, etc. The kids were simultaneously making jokes about how simplistic it was ("oh wow, text on a page") and super excited to be creating something ("look I made it say something different", "cool, let me try!"). So basically what I'm saying is that if you have the opportunity, stop just "spreading the word about programming" and actually work with some kids to teach them something. It's only been a few weeks, but already it feels like very fulfilling work, and hopefully it will make a difference to expose these kids to the what's possible for them to do earlier than they might otherwise encounter it.
- keithpeter 13y ago
  Sounds like you are enjoying running these workshops (the pupils will notice that and respond of course)! Suggest you pop basic documentation of the demos and what you evolve as the club progresses somewhere for other people with the skills to use as some kind of model, or at least a starting point.
  - markkanof 13y ago
    I have the basics up on GitHub at https://github.com/madisonpdx https://github.com/madisonpdx. I also plan to teach them how to use Git, but while version control is important, it didn't seem like the most exciting thing to begin with. I have been directing the students to the GitHub page though to get them comfortable with the idea of browsing open source code and possibly looking for other projects that interest them.

the_watcher 13y ago

Going back to the accounting/personal finance piece, I did a year of law school, and it was absolutely stunning how many of my classmates had no idea what compound interest was (more insane given that most of them were debt funding their education with high interest, non-dischargeable loans that now compound immediately upon taking them out), or that opportunity cost was something they should have considered when evaluating the cost of school.

frogpelt 13y ago
It is the parents' job to make sure their child is being educated. If the school is doing a poor job, the parent should switch schools or supplement the education at home. I say this because I think people used more common sense about money 100 years ago. They likely learned it at home, not at school.
- Bsharp 13y ago
  They probably did. Parents assume that their kids will learn anything they need to know in school, rather than ensure their kids know something by teaching it themselves.
- the_watcher 13y ago
  >> I say this because I think people used more common sense about money 100 years ago. They likely learned it at home, not at school. This is true, but 100 years ago, compulsory public education until ~age 18 was much less common, people simply had less money, and credit was not ubiquitous the way it is now. I agree parents need to take responsibility for filling in the gaps of school, but that doesn't mean you can't also advocate for the schools filling those gaps themselves.

Bsharp 13y ago

That's a response I use whenever people tell me compulsory schooling as it exists now is essential so kids can function in the real world. You learn little-to-no real-world skills in a basic K-12 (US) curriculum. If you'll let me put my tin foil hat on, I would say its possible that personal finance isn't taught deliberately - banks want people to be worse at money and debt management so they can make more money off them.

the_watcher 13y ago
>> I would say its possible that personal finance isn't taught deliberately - banks want people to be worse at money and debt management so they can make more money off them Public education seems to me to be one of the few sectors that big banks exert little to no influence on. The main problem is cyclical, many teachers and administrators never got this training, and so aren't well equipped to teach and advocate for it. Much of education curriculum setting (in terms of what classes to teach) is driven by union demand, so a lack of accounting/finance teachers leads to less advocacy, while a surplus of visual arts and music teachers leads to substantial demand for those classes.
- markkanof 13y ago
  I agree with your point about it being a cyclical problem, but have to disagree with the part about supply and demand. Much of what has to be taught in public schools is dictated by government policy (both state and federal). Art and music classes are typically some of the first things to be cut when there are budget constraints, so a surplus of those types of teachers leads to a surplus of unemployed teachers (or retraining for a different subject), not a surplus of those classes being offered.
  - the_watcher 13y ago
    "a surplus of those types of teachers leads to a surplus of unemployed teachers." Yet, when budgets increase, these are the first to return, and the useful classes are never offered. I'm not arguing that art and music teachers end up unemployed first, but their existence is still what drives the lobbying for these programs. Government education policy (at the curriculum, not budget level), is substantially influenced by teachers unions.

tsumnia 13y ago

"...where the final was just making a PowerPoint, and half the class just played Oregon Trail during." I honestly think this is the biggest issue and the main motivator for teaching coding. The issue is our computer courses are designed to be 'How to Learn Microsoft Office on Microsoft Windows', any deviation from THAT curriculum already punishes the student. Then, its re-enforced by repitive 'this is how you bold' work. Every computer teacher says they throw in some extra 'real' work, but why can't THAT be what they're learning. A quick Google search shows this is the Intro to Computers description: "This course introduces computer concepts, including fundamental functions and operations of the computer. Topics include identification of hardware components, basic computer operations, security issues, and use of software applications. Upon completion, students should be able to demonstrate an understanding of the role and function of computers and use the computer to solve problems." Somehow this has become MS Office. Graphic art courses don't teach 'Photoshop', they teach you art using Photoshop. I feel the issue is many Intro to Computer courses are taught the opposite.

bluedino 13y ago
>> Then, its re-enforced by repitive 'this is how you bold' work I remember 10th grade computer class. We got a printed piece of paper, you had to center, bold, and italicize things. Anyone who had used a computer to type a paper before completed it in about 5 minutes while the rest of the class struggled. >> Every computer teacher says they throw in some extra 'real' work, but why can't THAT be what they're learning. Same teacher tried an HTML assignment later that semester. Center, bold, italicize somethings and place an image, make a link. Almost none of the kids finished it, and the 2-3 who knew HTML completed it in 5 minutes.
- the_watcher 13y ago
  Things like Codecademy should make things like HTML assignments easier. Have the kids complete a few Codecademy lessons, then give the assignment.
- tsumnia 13y ago
  I'm not saying formatting a document isn't important, it is. But the degree I'm required to teach, or when I tutored is grad school, is a bit overboard. We have an entire chapter on MS Office integration where they'll learn to export an Access query to an Excel spreadsheet so they can 'integrate' that with a Powerpoint presentation. Does it force them to study? Yes. Is it an activity they'll ever need? No. My point falls more in line with the Intro to Computer courses are too platform dependent, so we have to teach the platform, not the activity. Instead of teaching them how to use an Internet Explorer Web Slice, I'd rather have it focus on being able to adequately solve a problem through search engines. I <i>can</i> do it, but then I'm chastised for being the nail that sticks out. At least on your last point, I actually think there should be a placement test administered to students to determine their computers skills, much like Math and Foreign Language. If you don't know how to turn a computer on, get placed in a pre-Intro course, so-so students can fall into the basics (not MS Office) and those that will sleep through and Ace the course can be CLEP'd out. The issue is, how would you create a placement test that tests ability to 'use a computer' vs. MS Office. Anyone who's technically savvy (including non-IT people) know how to 'use a computer', which is exactly what I feel current Intro to Computer courses do not teach.

JackFr 13y ago

Regarding the 'Visual Art' requirement -- in junior high and high school we hat 'Art' and 'Music' classes which were a monumental waste of time. They taught neither history or technical skills, and ended up being 'Appreciation' courses which left you with neither any skills, nor any really knowledge of the history. I think it would have been much more useful to teach singing and drawing, both of which are teachable, useful and would lead to a fuller, richer life.

the_watcher 13y ago
I played saxophone in middle school, which wasn't a total waste, but I quit after two years to fit Spanish into my schedule (which I then didn't learn because the instruction was so bad). Drawing, cooking, shop, accounting, intro to programming, etc. would have all been more applicable to a productive life.

markkanof 13y ago

I recently decided to stop talking about teaching kids to code, and actually do it. I don't plan to quite my job as a developer to become a full time teacher, so instead I started an after school program. This was made a lot easier because my wife is a high school teacher. We started a technology club at her high school with the dual goals of showing kids really interesting things that can be done with technology as well as actually teaching them some coding skills. We've only been running for a few weeks but we've got about ten kids showing up every week. So far I've shown them some demos of things like using Google maps in your own software, making your own maps with TileMill, browser based games with Crafty, and phone call and SMS stuff with Twilio. They seemed to respond positively to all the demos but were very excited about the Twilio demo. I'm not surprised, because I also thought the ability to type something into a text area in the browser and then receive a phone call with that text read to me, is pretty sweet! Most recently we started doing some basic HTML. Pages, images, links, etc. The kids were simultaneously making jokes about how simplistic it was ("oh wow, text on a page") and super excited to be creating something ("look I made it say something different", "cool, let me try!"). So basically what I'm saying is that if you have the opportunity, stop just "spreading the word about programming" and actually work with some kids to teach them something. It's only been a few weeks, but already it feels like very fulfilling work, and hopefully it will make a difference to expose these kids to the what's possible for them to do earlier than they might otherwise encounter it.

keithpeter 13y ago
Sounds like you are enjoying running these workshops (the pupils will notice that and respond of course)! Suggest you pop basic documentation of the demos and what you evolve as the club progresses somewhere for other people with the skills to use as some kind of model, or at least a starting point.
- markkanof 13y ago
  I have the basics up on GitHub at https://github.com/madisonpdx https://github.com/madisonpdx. I also plan to teach them how to use Git, but while version control is important, it didn't seem like the most exciting thing to begin with. I have been directing the students to the GitHub page though to get them comfortable with the idea of browsing open source code and possibly looking for other projects that interest them.