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People who use their Windows laptops primarily for business/accounting data-entry tasks love the number pads. This blogger does not know the market better than

by gojomo 13y ago

People who use their Windows laptops primarily for business/accounting data-entry tasks love the number pads. This blogger does not know the market better than the large and profitable manufacturers selling into it. The manufacturers have real numbers backing their decisions – not subjective aesthetic and ergonomic hand-waving. If customers weren't choosing (and even paying extra for) for the numpad, it'd disappear quickly.

MichaelGG 13y ago
Lenovo's been shipping 14" and 15" business laptops with 1366x768 screens for a while, and no one seems to want that. No users were benefited by trimming ThinkPads to a 6-row keyboard, yet they pushed ahead with that anyways. HP shipped plenty of laptops with massive heat issues (literally painful to the touch, even sitting idle at the MS Store). To think that OEMs always know best is wishful thinking. Although in the case of a numpad on a large style laptop, I'd probably prefer it.
- gojomo 13y ago
  Sure they can make mistakes... but the existence of multiple numpad-containing laptops, from multiple vendors, over many years is an existence proof of a preference among an important customer group (in addition to your personal testimony). Even those crappy short screens: since businesses are buying them in preference to alternatives, they must find something about the cost and form acceptable. For business-focused machines, used by non-technical employees in brief spurts with a single full-screen app to get specific things done, a small screen may be preferable! HN commenters and coder/designer bloggers are not the customer.
  - Zak 13y ago
    Even those crappy short screens: since businesses are buying them in preference to alternatives What alternatives? There are no business laptops with full screens on the market. Lenovo offered 4:3 and 16:10 models that were otherwise comparable for a very short period of time. Buyers, from what I remember of the period, did not tend to prefer the 16:10 models. I'm not sure if anybody else had a comparable overlap. The switch from 16:10 to 16:9 was even more abrupt.
- SamReidHughes 13y ago
  Oh great, the typical Lenovo-doesn't-know-what-they're-doing comment. And of course it's completely wrong. Tons of people want 1366x768 screens on their 15" laptops. Otherwise it makes everything too small! That's what they think and that's what they want. And having the 6-row keyboard helps touchpad users, which is the majority of the Thinkpad customer base, have larger touchpads, and a smaller overall chassis with bigger palmrest, especially on the X240 but also on the T440s and T440.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    I don't know what you mean by "makes everything too small". 1366x786 is shipped on 10" laptops just fine; saying it's needed at 15" is silly. Not to mention, Lenovo doesn't even offer many alternatives, except on the higher-end models. The only good thing is that Apple is showing them up, so they're finally responding in kind, rather than racing to the bottom against Dell and HP. As far as vertical space, which you argue as a positive of the 6-row layout, is negated by the fact they switched to a less vertical screen, and hence, keyboard. Edit: As far as Lenovo doesn't know what they're doing... do a screw count on modern designs. Look at how much work is involved replacing the most common part (fan) - you've got to take _everything_ out. I've no reason to believe the high-level technical decisions are being made more intelligently than the obvious lack in quality at the low-level.
zokier 13y ago
> If customers weren't choosing (and even paying extra for) for the numpad, it'd disappear quickly. You are assuming that consumers are making rational and informed choices. The fact that people buy numpad-equipped laptops does not mean that they prefer it, but rather it means that it is what is being sold to them. If there is a minority that is willing to pay extra for the numpad, and a majority who are ignorant about the compromises involved and thus ambivalent about the choice, then of course manufacturers are going to cater that minority and squish couple extra bucks while sacrificing the majority. But that doesn't mean that numpad would be beneficial to the ignorant majority.
- gojomo 13y ago
  There are so many laptop options without number-pads – usually cheaper, even. No one is being fooled or forced to accept a numpad. A few naive or first-time buyers might not yet know what they want... they'll either return/exchange their mistake or fix their choice next time.
wting 13y ago
You can always buy a USB number pad for data entry tasks, but you can't remove a numpad from an existing keyboard. A 3rd party number pad is probably higher quality anyway.
- john_b 13y ago
  This sacrifices a number of portability bonuses that laptops usually bring. Try finding a place to put a USB laptop on a flight, or finding space to put it on one of those small student desks that has less surface area than the laptop itself.
- Nicholas_C 13y ago
  No way, then I'd have to deal with that annoying cord all over my desk and then having it invariably get tangled in my backpack. It's not that big of a deal to have a slightly offset keyboard.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Nicholas_C 13y ago
Exactly. The main reason I chose my current laptop over another was because it has a number pad. I now have a work issued laptop without a number pad, so I have to drag around my work issued keyboard because zipping through excel efficiently without it is harder.

by gojomo 13y ago

MichaelGG 13y ago

Lenovo's been shipping 14" and 15" business laptops with 1366x768 screens for a while, and no one seems to want that. No users were benefited by trimming ThinkPads to a 6-row keyboard, yet they pushed ahead with that anyways. HP shipped plenty of laptops with massive heat issues (literally painful to the touch, even sitting idle at the MS Store). To think that OEMs always know best is wishful thinking. Although in the case of a numpad on a large style laptop, I'd probably prefer it.

gojomo 13y ago
Sure they can make mistakes... but the existence of multiple numpad-containing laptops, from multiple vendors, over many years is an existence proof of a preference among an important customer group (in addition to your personal testimony). Even those crappy short screens: since businesses are buying them in preference to alternatives, they must find something about the cost and form acceptable. For business-focused machines, used by non-technical employees in brief spurts with a single full-screen app to get specific things done, a small screen may be preferable! HN commenters and coder/designer bloggers are not the customer.
- Zak 13y ago
  Even those crappy short screens: since businesses are buying them in preference to alternatives What alternatives? There are no business laptops with full screens on the market. Lenovo offered 4:3 and 16:10 models that were otherwise comparable for a very short period of time. Buyers, from what I remember of the period, did not tend to prefer the 16:10 models. I'm not sure if anybody else had a comparable overlap. The switch from 16:10 to 16:9 was even more abrupt.
SamReidHughes 13y ago
Oh great, the typical Lenovo-doesn't-know-what-they're-doing comment. And of course it's completely wrong. Tons of people want 1366x768 screens on their 15" laptops. Otherwise it makes everything too small! That's what they think and that's what they want. And having the 6-row keyboard helps touchpad users, which is the majority of the Thinkpad customer base, have larger touchpads, and a smaller overall chassis with bigger palmrest, especially on the X240 but also on the T440s and T440.
- MichaelGG 13y ago
  I don't know what you mean by "makes everything too small". 1366x786 is shipped on 10" laptops just fine; saying it's needed at 15" is silly. Not to mention, Lenovo doesn't even offer many alternatives, except on the higher-end models. The only good thing is that Apple is showing them up, so they're finally responding in kind, rather than racing to the bottom against Dell and HP. As far as vertical space, which you argue as a positive of the 6-row layout, is negated by the fact they switched to a less vertical screen, and hence, keyboard. Edit: As far as Lenovo doesn't know what they're doing... do a screw count on modern designs. Look at how much work is involved replacing the most common part (fan) - you've got to take _everything_ out. I've no reason to believe the high-level technical decisions are being made more intelligently than the obvious lack in quality at the low-level.

zokier 13y ago

> If customers weren't choosing (and even paying extra for) for the numpad, it'd disappear quickly. You are assuming that consumers are making rational and informed choices. The fact that people buy numpad-equipped laptops does not mean that they prefer it, but rather it means that it is what is being sold to them. If there is a minority that is willing to pay extra for the numpad, and a majority who are ignorant about the compromises involved and thus ambivalent about the choice, then of course manufacturers are going to cater that minority and squish couple extra bucks while sacrificing the majority. But that doesn't mean that numpad would be beneficial to the ignorant majority.

gojomo 13y ago
There are so many laptop options without number-pads – usually cheaper, even. No one is being fooled or forced to accept a numpad. A few naive or first-time buyers might not yet know what they want... they'll either return/exchange their mistake or fix their choice next time.

wting 13y ago

You can always buy a USB number pad for data entry tasks, but you can't remove a numpad from an existing keyboard. A 3rd party number pad is probably higher quality anyway.

john_b 13y ago
This sacrifices a number of portability bonuses that laptops usually bring. Try finding a place to put a USB laptop on a flight, or finding space to put it on one of those small student desks that has less surface area than the laptop itself.
Nicholas_C 13y ago
No way, then I'd have to deal with that annoying cord all over my desk and then having it invariably get tangled in my backpack. It's not that big of a deal to have a slightly offset keyboard.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

Nicholas_C 13y ago

Exactly. The main reason I chose my current laptop over another was because it has a number pad. I now have a work issued laptop without a number pad, so I have to drag around my work issued keyboard because zipping through excel efficiently without it is harder.