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I appreciate the cheekiness of calling it the "Dark Mail Alliance", but from a purely PR perspective, it would make sense to reconsider your name if you are tak
by natural219 13y ago
I appreciate the cheekiness of calling it the "Dark Mail Alliance", but from a purely PR perspective, it would make sense to reconsider your name if you are taking the position that encrypted end-to-end email is not solely an interest of those pursuing shady or deviant activities.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- sandstrom 13y agoI totally agree, I really think you should change the name. Some suggestions: - Locke Mail [from John Locke] - Mill Mail [from John Stuart Mill] - Hobbes Mail - Liberty Mail
- kenko 13y agoHobbes Mail makes no sense; either you're in the condition of the war of all against all (no thanks) or you've surrendered everything to a single sovereign (no thanks).
- networked 13y ago>or you've surrendered everything to a single sovereign Well, Bruce Schneier has argued that that's what security is becoming today: feudal (https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/feudal_sec.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2012/12/feudal_sec.ht...). If you wanted to, you could instead call most if not all currently existing email services "Hobbes mail".
- gknoy 13y agoYes, but it would seem that a system like this is intended to work counter that, by keeping your communications secure from all.
- sandstrom 13y agoHaha, a valid point! :) I wasn't thinking of Leviathan, rather some of his thoughts on liberalism[1]. The right of the individual, that political power should represent the people etc. [1] Liberalism in it's classic and original sense (not the skewed meaning that it somehow has gotten here in the US). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United_States#American_versus_European_use_of_the_term_.22liberalism.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_liberalism_in_the_United...
- vidarh 13y agoHis thoughts on liberalism are deeply connected with his social contract theory. He believed the strong central government was a necessity to protect the right of the individual, and that so individuals do cede power to the sovereign by acceding to a social contract. The social contract of Hobbes is not something one can opt out of, or refuse, but an explanation and justification for individual rights within an absolute monarchy. At the same time Hobbes argued that to preserve the peace was so central that the sovereign had the power, and was indeed duty bound under the social contract, to take whatever measures necessary to ensure peace - even authoritarian measures. His ideas on social contract theory are historically important as a pre-cursor to more expansive ideas about personal freedoms, but they are extremely authoritarian by most modern standards.
- RamiK 13y agoFreedom \ Liberty \ Patriot \ Constitution Mail would be very effective in blocking political speeches and biased headlines from cheap attacks. My personal favorite is Lincoln Mail... Seems highly appropriate on many levels and should be FOX News proof.
- StavrosK 13y agoAs a European, something called "Lincoln mail" would give me a bit of a rash...
- chalst 13y agoRobin Hood's freedom and privacy-loving band were dressed in Lincoln green...
- xradionut 13y agoLincoln Mail would be shot while in the Security Theater.
- kaeawc 13y agoaoh SNAAAPP
- mathgladiator 13y agotoo soon
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- femto 13y agoSome of those suggestions lose their punch when moved to a non-American context. I'd argue that the name should work on the assumption that it is the defacto standard, and so there is no need to distinguish between "normal mail" and "new mail". It should also contain a possessive pronoun. (Something like "YourMail", if not already taken?). With such a name, when someone attacks the mail service it will be difficult to avoid attacking the person, as an attacker will have to attack "YourMail". Attack the person and the person will react. Not distinguishing between normal and new will have two effects: 1) It will seem a normal thing for the uninitiated to use it. 2) In the case of an attack, it will be easier for people to say the attack is directed at themselves, since the generic name will draw people in, rather than letting them dismiss it as an exclusive club.
- bobsil1 13y agoBlackMail
- balabaster 13y agoHahahaha I love this... that far supercedes any of the other suggestions - by an order of magnitude :D
- adeptus 13y agoI suggest names that don't have limited country/cultural references if the intent is to make this a global success. Some other suggestions: -SecMail (Secure Email) -PrivMail (private/privacy email) -FMail (freedom email) -NetMail (New Internet standard email) And thank you for taking this on, it is seriously needed. And please, no reliance on CA certs, chances are the NSA has compromised at least some of those.
- wcarss 13y agohow did you manage not to say FreeMail
- jakobe 13y agoI like Fmail because it is the alphabetical successor to Email.
- asmala 13y agoFirst thought; Brilliant. Second thought; E, F, Gmail…
- balabaster 13y agoPMail rhymes with EMail and shortens from PrivMail... perhaps more punchy? It seems to roll off the tongue easier...
- galapago 13y agoBitMail?
- CPAhem 13y agoLavamail?
- evolve2k 13y agoYes please reconsider the name. I would go with something like 'sealed mail' and imply the imagery of how in the olden days mail was sealed with a wax stamp. A strong visual analogy can be very powerful.
- chadzawistowski 13y agoI like the name 'Locke Mail' for that very reason.
- hnha 13y agoWithout searching I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. I guess it is something related to free speech in the USA? I might remember it from school. What I am implying is that it seems like a localized term and people elsewhere might have no connotation(?) to it. In German the word means a curl of hair.
- jamestnz 13y ago>Without searching I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. I guess it is something related to free speech in the USA? He was a British philosopher from the 1600s, an important Enlightenment thinker.
- abrahamsen 13y agoI'd say the advantage of 'Locke Mail' is that it gives the right associations even to people who haven't heard of John Locke. Locked Mail. Mail protected by a (cryptographic) lock.
- vidarh 13y agoHe might be fitting in relation to US history considering that while he spoke of equality and freedom, he was a major investor in the slave trade (he also was involved in trying to introduce a feudal aristocracy in Carolina). He was very progressive for his time, and so he's one of the "icons" of classical liberalism, but he died in 1704, and we've moved on a tad from then.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- anaphor 13y agoPopper Mail (go read The Open Society and Its Enemies)
- vidarh 13y agoAny philosopher, ideologist or politicians you might think of will elicit exactly the opposite reactions of what you want from a substantial percentage of people who would otherwise like the idea.
- sliverstorm 13y agoLiberty Mail seems cheesy and try-hard.
- gnaritas 13y agoAnd would work well on the type of people who respond to that. No one brand will get everyone, repackage and relabel for each target demographic.
- PavlovsCat 13y agoSo does "Hacker News", but who cares? I sure don't. Name it XB483 for all I care, just make it work..
- vidarh 13y agoPrtty much nobody would understand the connotations of Locke, Mill or Hobbes, and amongst those who do they'd be contentious. Consider that for example Mill thought despotism could be acceptable under utilitarian principles if the end result was a better society afterwards; I don't know what you think of Marx [Marx Mail? Maybe not], but even an authoritarian reading of Marx ideological works fits within utilitarian principles to those who agree with it, while those who read Marx from a libertarian viewpoint, e.g. left communists, would generally find Mills distastefully authoritarian. Locke was a major investor in the slave trade, and a central participant in trying to institute a feudal aristocracy in Carolina - writing about freedoms while trying to deprive others of them. Locke Mail in that respect would be fitting brand for a NSA run mail service for its hypocrisy alone. Hobbes, while talking about individual rights, was a supporter of a strong central government an a supporter of absolute monarchy. He too would be a suitable beacon for the NSA. That is not to say that these people were not important for the development of philosophical ideas related to freedom, but only in relation to the politics of the time. Today all three of them are archaic and authoritarian compared to a lot of more recent philosophers. As for Liberty Mail, outside of the US at least it would be likely to leave a bad taste with a lot of people. It reads like Far-Right-Wing-US-Nationalistic-Nutjob-Mail or Lets-Pretend-It-Is-Liberty-While-We-Screw-You-Over-Mail to me, and I know a lot of people likely to have similar reactions.
- bentcorner 13y ago"Free-Mail" is a possibility. It rolls off the tongue like "email", is not so politically charged like "Freedom-Mail", and can entice people with the word "Free" while you can educate them (not an easy problem to solve though) with the "Free as in Freedom, not as in Beer".
- Hellenion 13y agoHow about just "Mill"? It'll maybe help differentiate it from regular (e-)mail, but it still sounds similar.
- quotha 13y agoI like the name - after all it is just a name - is the Patriot Act patriotic??
- amirmc 13y agoAs a counterpoint, who could possibly argue against passing something called the 'Patriot Act'? To do so would almost be un-patriotic, right? DarkMail, however, is a bit different. Is that what the bad-guys are using these days? My point from the above is that names do matter.
- chadillac83 13y agoI think the "Dark" in "Dark Mail Alliance" is meant more in the sense that it's "off the grid" of NSA spying capabilities, not that it's meant to be used for nefarious purposes.
- tg3 13y agoI would agree, but the word means what people think that it means, and the most likely interpretation will be "nefarious purposes". Especially when the powers that be will likely oppose this, the more braindead you can make your image, the better.
- chris_mahan 13y agoPlus it's impossible to be sure that whatever you're doing electronically is not being spied on by the NSA.
- herbig 13y agoBeing open source and having faith in the soundness of the cryptography is about as good as it can get.
- devx 13y agoI'm sure their intention was not to be used for nefarious purposes, but that doesn't mean NSA/FBI/Congress won't try to portray it as such. But anyway, I'm starting to get the feeling this issue is taking too much attention from the protocol itself, which is the big news here. If they want to change it, great, if not that's fine, too. They just need to make sure the protocol is great, and can get other big e-mail providers to support it, or at least a ton of smaller ones.
- mpyne 13y agoYou could conduct entirely legit business within a 'black market' but most people will still assume it's nefarious until proven otherwise.
- drcube 13y agoI think it implies "hidden". As in "Dark Matter" or not having light shone on your work. I didn't think of it as "the Dark Side" or anything.
- matthuggins 13y agoI am willing to bet you are in the minority though. :)
- twelvechairs 13y agowhy not just 'private mail'. tell them what it is on the tin
- eps 13y agopmail then?
- jlgreco 13y agoIf the system they create is excessively vulnerable to political pressure, then it would be better to find that out sooner rather than later. If bad PR threatens their ability to operate, then perhaps they should not be operating.
- matthuggins 13y agoCame to say the exact same thing, I can't upvote this enough. It makes it sound negative, similar to the phrase "black hat".
- ra 13y agoTotally agree. There was a talk show on the radio yesterday about Tor, the illegal trade of drugs and other bad things on the Internet. They referred to it as "The dark web".
- mburns 13y agoI bet they called it the 'deep' web, which is what it has been called for years. Otherwise they were just wrong. That being said, caring that the name might 'sound negative' seems ridiculous. Anyone who wants to rely on a form of secure communication wouldn't base their judgement solely on a name and ignore the context like who founded it. People who are willing to make those snap judgements aren't interested in the service.
- nitrogen 13y agoAnyone who wants to rely on a form of secure communication wouldn't base their judgement solely on a name and ignore the context like who founded it. The future of security depends on having everyone use it, including those who don't currently (realize they should) care.
- rhythmvs 13y agoThe “dark” part is not so much the issue: why not leave out “mail” altogether? E-mail 3.0 won’t be e-mail as people know it (and will continue to associate with the very concepts 3.0 seeks to avoid). It shall be something different enough to give it another name — at least to avoid confusion, or to prevent spin doctors from taking advantage of the associations and mental model people have on the concept of e-mail. Nobody thinks of “e-mail” when you mention Snapchat, Facebook messages, Twitter… That would be different if these services had names like Snapmail, Facemail, Tweetmail, or Darkmail.
- mattlutze 13y agoExtending the points of a few others, 1. I'd give the alliance a generic name that won't come off as threatening or malevolent when used out of context in news articles. Make it boring to talk about the alliance so it can operate larger and and with less scrutiny. 2. If you really really want to politicize the products, launch several regionally branded services, that can use the same architectural design, but leverage the cultural mores of individual freedom for those areas. What catches on in Germany may not be what sells in Spain/Italy/Greece today, for example. However, The "FMail" suggestion, or something similarly benign, is a strong choice, in that it diminishes the effect of partisan rhetoric and allows the tool to be sold on its actual merits. 3. Then you can gin up radical "Free the email!" action groups to run around and be obnoxious for you, take the heat and phoenix themselves into new groups every so often.
- louischatriot 13y agoTotally agree, dark mail feels too threatening.
- borplk 13y agoMy interpretation of "dark" is that "you can't see the inside"
- noptic 13y agodarkMail ~~ blackMail? looks like a PR disaster to me :/
- fusiongyro 13y agoCongratulations, you've discovered the ultimate bike shedding troll comment.
- malandrew 13y agoI agree. I would prefer something like the "MyMail" alliance, because that's really what this is about. It's about making mail mine again. Mainly has been totally owned by people who are not us, whether it is the NSA owning it via dragnet surveillance or Google using it to serve ads. It's not just our mail, but their mail as well. This name also appeals to ego. Ego matters. Talking about freedom and ideals will appeal to a minority, but you need a name that appeals to people's ego if you want to succeed. This is not the same but is related to the ideas that Seth Godin expoused in his TED talk about being remarkable. Nobody likes receiving email, but they like receiving MeMail. Me. Me. Me. Me. I want my email to be about me. If it is not, it is noise and tedium. Never underestimate an appeal to ego.