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Unfortunately, not only do a lot of US citizens still support such practices (I think around 40 percent - as long as they mention "to protect you from terrorist

by devx 13y ago

Unfortunately, not only do a lot of US citizens still support such practices (I think around 40 percent - as long as they mention "to protect you from terrorists"), but most of the rest who don't agree with the practices, can't be bothered to do much about it, like even calling their representative, let alone going out and protesting. I do believe this is very true: > All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing - Burke, Edmund So, yes, I'd say most Americans are responsible for this yes, by doing nothing to stop it. So don't blame the rest of the world if they start "hating Americans" or "hating America". You are part of it, you are responsible to change the America you want the world to love, too. Blaming only the government, that you probably voted in, too, does not cut it.

allochthon 13y ago
With this argument, you're implicitly assuming responsibility for the misdeeds of your own government. It's easy to cast blame en masse, but it is not a constructive response.
jganetsk 13y ago
People are not going to start hating Americans. They have already been hating Americans for hundreds of years. It started with the "degeneracy thesis" in the 18th century, where it had been suggested by European intellectuals that the American climate led to physically inferior animals and humans. The reasons for hating Americans change everyday. Hating a group of people is a completely irrational, unconstructive approach to solving a problem. If one has anger about something, they shouldn't lash out at group of people. If people want Americans to change something on their behalf, for their benefit, it needs to be from a standpoint of respect. They can start by asking nicely.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Respect, sure. But "asking nicely"? How has that not been done already, over and over and over? "Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people that were oppressing them." -- Assata Shakur Even though we could argue about wether this stuff consititutes "oppression", I think the point still applies, sadly.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    > "Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people that were oppressing them." -- Assata Shakur I think there are one or two examples in recent history. The LGBT movement has made a great deal of ground recently by appealing to peoples' sensibilities. Now, in more extreme cases you aren't going to talk the oppressors out of anything. I doubt anybody has ever stopped a genocide with rational argument and appeal to the murderers' sensibilities.
  - jganetsk 13y ago
    I'm not sure what we are talking about here. The US government is oppressing everyone... both Americans and non-Americans. In theory, the American people are the only ones with the power to solve this problem. This responsibility is a burden. Before going to bat, I would rather encounter friendly encouragement than smug contempt.
    - PavlovsCat 13y ago
      For what it's worth, you have mine. Encouragament that is, not contempt. Although I'm not convinced all Americans are yet aware of the fact that they themselves also are at the wrong end of this gun, I'm sure the number increases daily. And generally I don't think excluding people for what others force on them, or even for their ignorance, or even for their hybris, really leads anywhere. So many Americans have my support and even admiration, and even the ones I do resent (not in a smug way though, I'm under no such delusions I would hope), I would rather argue with, or, at worst, bitch at (but never, ever, "ask nicely" :P), than outright shun. Letting someone simmer in their own sauce can work with individuals, but in nations I think it always strengthens the autocratic and warmongering elements.
- madaxe 13y ago
  Yes, you're right, it's racist to oppose NSA spycraft. > They can start by asking nicely. "Can you please kindly, stop perpetuating your morally bankrupt spy-state?" Gosh. That achieved a lot.
  - jganetsk 13y ago
    Did I say anything about opposing NSA spycraft? Did I say anything about racism, for that matter? I'm talking about hating Americans. It's irrational, unconstructive, and not a novel thing to do. It's certainly not going to accomplish anything against NSA spycraft. If anything is going to change about NSA spycraft, especially on behalf of the rights of foreign nationals, having the rest of the world consider all Americans enemies is going to be counterproductive.
zenocon 13y ago
> but most of the rest who don't agree with the practices, can't be bothered to do much about it, like even calling their representative, let alone going out and protesting. That's b/c most Americans are caught up in an endless cycle of work-aholism to either support their consumer-addiction and/or to climb out of debt and just pay the bills. Related to that, I know this is somewhat menial, but I have found the site http://popvox.com http://popvox.com to be fairly useful in this regard. Create an account, and you can track all current legislation -- a couple clicks will fire a stock letter to your rep either supporting or protesting a bill -- or you can edit the letter with a custom message (better). It is certainly a step above doing nothing and makes the task much easier.

by devx 13y ago

allochthon 13y ago

With this argument, you're implicitly assuming responsibility for the misdeeds of your own government. It's easy to cast blame en masse, but it is not a constructive response.

jganetsk 13y ago

People are not going to start hating Americans. They have already been hating Americans for hundreds of years. It started with the "degeneracy thesis" in the 18th century, where it had been suggested by European intellectuals that the American climate led to physically inferior animals and humans. The reasons for hating Americans change everyday. Hating a group of people is a completely irrational, unconstructive approach to solving a problem. If one has anger about something, they shouldn't lash out at group of people. If people want Americans to change something on their behalf, for their benefit, it needs to be from a standpoint of respect. They can start by asking nicely.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Respect, sure. But "asking nicely"? How has that not been done already, over and over and over? "Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people that were oppressing them." -- Assata Shakur Even though we could argue about wether this stuff consititutes "oppression", I think the point still applies, sadly.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > "Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people that were oppressing them." -- Assata Shakur I think there are one or two examples in recent history. The LGBT movement has made a great deal of ground recently by appealing to peoples' sensibilities. Now, in more extreme cases you aren't going to talk the oppressors out of anything. I doubt anybody has ever stopped a genocide with rational argument and appeal to the murderers' sensibilities.
- jganetsk 13y ago
  I'm not sure what we are talking about here. The US government is oppressing everyone... both Americans and non-Americans. In theory, the American people are the only ones with the power to solve this problem. This responsibility is a burden. Before going to bat, I would rather encounter friendly encouragement than smug contempt.
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    For what it's worth, you have mine. Encouragament that is, not contempt. Although I'm not convinced all Americans are yet aware of the fact that they themselves also are at the wrong end of this gun, I'm sure the number increases daily. And generally I don't think excluding people for what others force on them, or even for their ignorance, or even for their hybris, really leads anywhere. So many Americans have my support and even admiration, and even the ones I do resent (not in a smug way though, I'm under no such delusions I would hope), I would rather argue with, or, at worst, bitch at (but never, ever, "ask nicely" :P), than outright shun. Letting someone simmer in their own sauce can work with individuals, but in nations I think it always strengthens the autocratic and warmongering elements.
madaxe 13y ago
Yes, you're right, it's racist to oppose NSA spycraft. > They can start by asking nicely. "Can you please kindly, stop perpetuating your morally bankrupt spy-state?" Gosh. That achieved a lot.
- jganetsk 13y ago
  Did I say anything about opposing NSA spycraft? Did I say anything about racism, for that matter? I'm talking about hating Americans. It's irrational, unconstructive, and not a novel thing to do. It's certainly not going to accomplish anything against NSA spycraft. If anything is going to change about NSA spycraft, especially on behalf of the rights of foreign nationals, having the rest of the world consider all Americans enemies is going to be counterproductive.

zenocon 13y ago

> but most of the rest who don't agree with the practices, can't be bothered to do much about it, like even calling their representative, let alone going out and protesting. That's b/c most Americans are caught up in an endless cycle of work-aholism to either support their consumer-addiction and/or to climb out of debt and just pay the bills. Related to that, I know this is somewhat menial, but I have found the site http://popvox.com http://popvox.com to be fairly useful in this regard. Create an account, and you can track all current legislation -- a couple clicks will fire a stock letter to your rep either supporting or protesting a bill -- or you can edit the letter with a custom message (better). It is certainly a step above doing nothing and makes the task much easier.