5 ms·

>That doesn't mean that feminists hate men, white or otherwise, anymore than men hate women as a class of people. That's a nice false equivalence you've got th

by aroch 13y ago

>That doesn't mean that feminists hate men, white or otherwise, anymore than men hate women as a class of people. That's a nice false equivalence you've got there. >However, white men have a lot of cultural privilege Oh goody, you're hiding behind the boogieman, aka "privilege". In modern, "western" culture there's really no cultural privilege for men. Unless we're going to count the privilege to be drafted, or murdered, or die on the job with nary a twitch of the feminist diaspora. >Anyway, I hope you have some opportunities to grow and realize lack of respect for a group of people seeking to be respected is a failure of imagination on your part That's rather nonsensical. Just because a group wants to be respected doesn't mean they deserve respect.

ewzimm 13y ago
If you believe that modern western cultures are not gender biased and this state of affairs is worth preserving, then you are a feminist! You can't deny it because you have just advocated for gender equality. Feminism advocates for autonomy for everyone. Everyone should be able to make choices about how to live their life instead of having those choices made for them. Everyone should have control over their own body. Everyone should have control over their own self image. You may not perceive it, but many people live in cultures in which they are strongly pushed toward ideal body types, lifestyles, and choices from many angles: family, community, media, friends. This affects both men and women. If people who live in traditionally patriarchal western cultures can now say honestly that they perceive no gender bias, then feminism has won. It may not have won the war, but it has at least won some battles, and it will continue fighting for equality for all.
- aroch 13y ago
  No, you really don't get to sling this kind of bullshit around. > If you believe that modern western cultures are not gender biased and this state of affairs is worth preserving, then you are a feminist! You can't deny it because you have just advocated for gender equality. No, if you're going to insist on naming it, it is "egalitarian". I also don't believe this state of affairs is worth preserving. >Feminism advocates for autonomy for everyone. No, no it doesn't. Feminism, by design and definition, advocates for the rights of women. Or rather, I should say, "womyn" since large, vocal factions of the feminist movement don't support the rights of trans-people. But I'm guessing you're one of those feminists that like to no true scotsman those feminists out of play, I guess their opinion don't count. Also, fuck your patriarchy bullshit. It's a convenient scapegoat and surrogate evil upon which much of modern feminist dogma is based.
  - ewzimm 13y ago
    Well if you don't desire equality for all under the law, if you prefer special privileges based on gender or another arbitrary aspect, then you certainly aren't a feminist. I won't argue that point, but I hope you understand my meaning of egalitarianism. I've often seen it confused with advocating weakness when it in fact means that everyone is treated fairly and given equal opportunity. I'm interested in what kind of position you do hold about how society should be structured. Perhaps you prefer a meritocracy, but that would require egalitarianism as a base state. Feminists advocate for the rights of women but not exclusively so. We advocate equality and address inequalities. Feminists support men as well when they are victims of inequalities. Of course, feminism is a broad movement and not a dogmatic cult, and therefore you will find those who do not support the rights of trans people, but they are not representative of the majority of feminists. Since its inception in the 19th century, feminism has expanded to address all aspects of gender in culture and identity. Many feminists like myself do not consider gender to be a binary position but a spectrum of cultural expressions. It is therefore impossible to advocate the rights of women without advocating the rights of men because no one is entirely "man" or "woman." No one fits neatly into static gender stereotypes. The rights of trans, intersexed, and genderqueer people are extremely important as we move forward. In the long term, I feel it's especially important that we question traditional gender roles because we have an increasingly powerful ability to manipulate our biology. We will see increasing amounts of people with bodies and minds that do not conform to our expectations because they are fundamentally different, and we need to develop a cultural understanding for relating to people who do not conform to our preconceived notions of gender expression.
tedks 13y ago
>Unless we're going to count the privilege to be drafted, or murdered, or die on the job with nary a twitch of the feminist diaspora. There's the privilege to not be raped. Or, the privilege to not be sexually harassed, on the street by strangers, in the office by people you have to see every day, or anywhere else. The privilege to wear clothing that is comfortable and cheap and socially accepted, and to wear that clothing without being judged as having "given up" or being slobbish. There's the privilege to register at a conference without being assumed to be the boyfriend of the co-worker you're at the table getting badges with. There's the privilege to get a job, fellowship, or acceptance to a school without being seen as an "affirmative action" choice who must not be really good enough for whatever position you've obtained. The privilege to speak up for yourself without being called a bitch, and to do so on the Internet without receiving rape threats. The privilege to grow up with a massive and wide variety of role models who are active, dynamic agents enforcing their will on the world, rather than submissive prizes awarded to those who wear down their "resistance" until they submit. It is utterly laughable to suggest that being a man does not come with a huge, incalculable amount of privilege, in any part of the world. It is insane to do so in the technology community, which has been acting to expel what few women attempted to inhabit it (probably not by intention, but certainly by result).
- aroch 13y ago
  >There's the privilege to not be raped. Now if only it weren't for the fact that the majority of rapes are institutional, ie. in prison, and are committed by women against women. Or the fact that rape laws have been shaped by feminism in a way to make men the only ones capable of raping in an overwhelming majority of sexual encounters -- rape being defined by the likes of the FBI as forced penetration with a penis or object. Or that male rape victims are routinely marginalized in media. Or that the same illegal conduct by a male is "rape" but is only "sexual assualt" when committed by a female. Or the utter disproportionality of punishment for male verse female perpetrators. Or the various "rape shield" laws that allow the accused to be dragged through the mud in the press while "protecting" the accuser, even when the accuser is proven false. Or that women have started to view calling sexual encounters rape as a "get out of trouble free, card. >Or, the privilege to not be sexually harassed, on the street by strangers, in the office by people you have to see every day, or anywhere else. Yes, men are never sexual harassed. Neeeeever. >The privilege to wear clothing that is comfortable and cheap and socially accepted, and to wear that clothing without being judged as having "given up" or being slobbish. Once again, a non-gendered "privilege" >There's the privilege to get a job, fellowship, or acceptance to a school without being seen as an "affirmative action" choice who must not be really good enough for whatever position you've obtained. Having been involved, first hand, on both the applicant and hiring side I've seen the results of forced "equality" in hiring. It rarely increases talent and often harms it. And on and on...Your list is full of tropes that are half truths or ignore the two-sided nature of things. I'm glad the echo-chamber of self-victimization is working out for you though.

by aroch 13y ago

ewzimm 13y ago

If you believe that modern western cultures are not gender biased and this state of affairs is worth preserving, then you are a feminist! You can't deny it because you have just advocated for gender equality. Feminism advocates for autonomy for everyone. Everyone should be able to make choices about how to live their life instead of having those choices made for them. Everyone should have control over their own body. Everyone should have control over their own self image. You may not perceive it, but many people live in cultures in which they are strongly pushed toward ideal body types, lifestyles, and choices from many angles: family, community, media, friends. This affects both men and women. If people who live in traditionally patriarchal western cultures can now say honestly that they perceive no gender bias, then feminism has won. It may not have won the war, but it has at least won some battles, and it will continue fighting for equality for all.

aroch 13y ago
No, you really don't get to sling this kind of bullshit around. > If you believe that modern western cultures are not gender biased and this state of affairs is worth preserving, then you are a feminist! You can't deny it because you have just advocated for gender equality. No, if you're going to insist on naming it, it is "egalitarian". I also don't believe this state of affairs is worth preserving. >Feminism advocates for autonomy for everyone. No, no it doesn't. Feminism, by design and definition, advocates for the rights of women. Or rather, I should say, "womyn" since large, vocal factions of the feminist movement don't support the rights of trans-people. But I'm guessing you're one of those feminists that like to no true scotsman those feminists out of play, I guess their opinion don't count. Also, fuck your patriarchy bullshit. It's a convenient scapegoat and surrogate evil upon which much of modern feminist dogma is based.
- ewzimm 13y ago
  Well if you don't desire equality for all under the law, if you prefer special privileges based on gender or another arbitrary aspect, then you certainly aren't a feminist. I won't argue that point, but I hope you understand my meaning of egalitarianism. I've often seen it confused with advocating weakness when it in fact means that everyone is treated fairly and given equal opportunity. I'm interested in what kind of position you do hold about how society should be structured. Perhaps you prefer a meritocracy, but that would require egalitarianism as a base state. Feminists advocate for the rights of women but not exclusively so. We advocate equality and address inequalities. Feminists support men as well when they are victims of inequalities. Of course, feminism is a broad movement and not a dogmatic cult, and therefore you will find those who do not support the rights of trans people, but they are not representative of the majority of feminists. Since its inception in the 19th century, feminism has expanded to address all aspects of gender in culture and identity. Many feminists like myself do not consider gender to be a binary position but a spectrum of cultural expressions. It is therefore impossible to advocate the rights of women without advocating the rights of men because no one is entirely "man" or "woman." No one fits neatly into static gender stereotypes. The rights of trans, intersexed, and genderqueer people are extremely important as we move forward. In the long term, I feel it's especially important that we question traditional gender roles because we have an increasingly powerful ability to manipulate our biology. We will see increasing amounts of people with bodies and minds that do not conform to our expectations because they are fundamentally different, and we need to develop a cultural understanding for relating to people who do not conform to our preconceived notions of gender expression.

tedks 13y ago

>Unless we're going to count the privilege to be drafted, or murdered, or die on the job with nary a twitch of the feminist diaspora. There's the privilege to not be raped. Or, the privilege to not be sexually harassed, on the street by strangers, in the office by people you have to see every day, or anywhere else. The privilege to wear clothing that is comfortable and cheap and socially accepted, and to wear that clothing without being judged as having "given up" or being slobbish. There's the privilege to register at a conference without being assumed to be the boyfriend of the co-worker you're at the table getting badges with. There's the privilege to get a job, fellowship, or acceptance to a school without being seen as an "affirmative action" choice who must not be really good enough for whatever position you've obtained. The privilege to speak up for yourself without being called a bitch, and to do so on the Internet without receiving rape threats. The privilege to grow up with a massive and wide variety of role models who are active, dynamic agents enforcing their will on the world, rather than submissive prizes awarded to those who wear down their "resistance" until they submit. It is utterly laughable to suggest that being a man does not come with a huge, incalculable amount of privilege, in any part of the world. It is insane to do so in the technology community, which has been acting to expel what few women attempted to inhabit it (probably not by intention, but certainly by result).

aroch 13y ago
>There's the privilege to not be raped. Now if only it weren't for the fact that the majority of rapes are institutional, ie. in prison, and are committed by women against women. Or the fact that rape laws have been shaped by feminism in a way to make men the only ones capable of raping in an overwhelming majority of sexual encounters -- rape being defined by the likes of the FBI as forced penetration with a penis or object. Or that male rape victims are routinely marginalized in media. Or that the same illegal conduct by a male is "rape" but is only "sexual assualt" when committed by a female. Or the utter disproportionality of punishment for male verse female perpetrators. Or the various "rape shield" laws that allow the accused to be dragged through the mud in the press while "protecting" the accuser, even when the accuser is proven false. Or that women have started to view calling sexual encounters rape as a "get out of trouble free, card. >Or, the privilege to not be sexually harassed, on the street by strangers, in the office by people you have to see every day, or anywhere else. Yes, men are never sexual harassed. Neeeeever. >The privilege to wear clothing that is comfortable and cheap and socially accepted, and to wear that clothing without being judged as having "given up" or being slobbish. Once again, a non-gendered "privilege" >There's the privilege to get a job, fellowship, or acceptance to a school without being seen as an "affirmative action" choice who must not be really good enough for whatever position you've obtained. Having been involved, first hand, on both the applicant and hiring side I've seen the results of forced "equality" in hiring. It rarely increases talent and often harms it. And on and on...Your list is full of tropes that are half truths or ignore the two-sided nature of things. I'm glad the echo-chamber of self-victimization is working out for you though.