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My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistani
by srean 13y ago
My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal.
At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity of "wronged population of righteous Muslims") played in dragging their country to such a pathetic state where their sovereignty doesn't mean shit. A state when one of their erstwhile allies kill their citizens with impunity and political class doesn't do much about it apart from some token grandstanding. Much as I want this navel gazing to happen, I am also aware that ruling political classes of countries are typically so sociopathic that they are incapable of feeling responsible, a fact made very convenient now that there is mean old US to point to.
India managed to avoid this trajectory. Rather than patting ourselves on the back, I am acutely aware of how close a shave it was and still is. There are strong political forces in India that want to make it a Hindu hegemony. Their tools of propaganda are just the same and quite effective, the same "wronged population of righteous Hindus that meant and did nobody any harm". If that happens we wont be that far away from a Hindu version of current Pakistan. This thought terrifies me.
@einhverfr I am replying here because I strongly suspect that what I say will touch many a nerve and will lead to a long thread hijacking the original post, and by that I dont mean you personally. Please feel free to respond in the same way. Encouraging the wronged muslim identity and consequent Jihadism was very much an "in center" phenomena in Pakistan rather than the machinations of some fringe local state. Note the use of 'was' these things go back several decades in history. I think Pakistan under Jinnah would have fared much better had he lived longer.
@r0h1n spot on.
@mcantelon sure they did, a valid question is what did people in charge then do about it.
@prometheuspk India escaped and does, but just barely. It's a complicated mess, there are political parties that exploit the fact that many in India want to avoid the religious hegemony. These parties have been getting away with things that they should not be allowed to get away with. This fuels its own blowback...You mention Malala. Malala for US is I think convenient PR fodder, something useful to screen/decorate their drone program with. I dont even think they do it conciously. Everyone wants to see themselves as compassionate and fair.
@zzsleepzz thank you for illustrating my point.
Heh! there you go. downvotes start rolling in, did not expect any different though.
Interesting, the story suddenly drops out from first page inspite of 90 upvotes in less than 3 hrs. Seems it just got flagged. That I did not see coming.
- einhverfr 13y agoI don't know about that second paragraph. The key issue is that you have only a weak central government and a lot of regional autonomy. This has costs and benefits. The costs are that the central authorities have less control. The benefits is that they don't have to use resources that could help find kidnappers in Islamabad to control tribesmen who are fiercely independent. In the end, what's needing is an understanding that drones have two problems fundamentally associated with them. The first is that they are low-knowledge operations and thus the fact is that it is likely that the drone operators don't have a clear picture of what is really going on, and the second is that a single drone operator may be operating many drones at once, increasing the likelihood of mistakes. If we are going to engage in targetted killings, nothing beats boots on the ground.
- r0h1n 13y agoYou're completely right about the relative trajectories of India and Pakistan (full disclosure: I'm Indian). I suspect most HNers will not be aware of their shared history, painful separation and subsequent diverging paths. That said, no country ought to be above international law, even when they are targeting hapless & innocent civilians of a failing or despotic regime. That is the primary point here.
- nebulasri 13y agodear srean, It would help a lot if you go through history of India. Also learn more about Jihad and how it is funded.
- beedogs 13y agoPretty unhelpful comment.
- mcantelon 13y agoThe CIA also encouraged jihadism while the USSR was occupying Afghanistan.
- beedogs 13y agoIndeed. A lot of people seem to gloss over the fact that the US trained and funded Bin Laden himself, which was all well and good when he was on "our side".