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As an agnostic white man who is also a feminist, this comment makes me sad. So sad in fact that I created an account just to come say something about it. There

As an agnostic white man who is also a feminist, this comment makes me sad. So sad in fact that I created an account just to come say something about it. There are undoubtedly angry people, willing to lash out at anyone they think may have wronged them, and some of those people may identify as feminists. That doesn't mean that feminists hate men, white or otherwise, anymore than men hate women as a class of people. However, white men have a lot of cultural privilege in America, and privilege is an insidious beast. It's really hard to see unless you're on the wrong side of it, or spend time giving it some thought. I've been trying to be better about that lately, to at least become aware of the things that society have given to me with no effort of my own, but it takes time. I don't want to rant at you, but I like to try to educate people when they mis-step. Personally, my ability to respect anyone comes from a place of understanding that they are trying to work to better themselves and others, and try to elevate the dialogue a little. Respect for decent Christians, and respect for Feminists, for me, comes from the same place. They're just trying to do right in the world. It's hard though. The world is a tough place to get by for anyone, no matter where you come from. Anyway, I hope you have some opportunities to grow and realize lack of respect for a group of people seeking to be respected is a failure of imagination on your part. I'm sure the world will keep presenting you the lesson until you've either made progress on it, or become so set in your ways as to be blinded to the possibility. Ciao!

aroch 13y ago
>That doesn't mean that feminists hate men, white or otherwise, anymore than men hate women as a class of people. That's a nice false equivalence you've got there. >However, white men have a lot of cultural privilege Oh goody, you're hiding behind the boogieman, aka "privilege". In modern, "western" culture there's really no cultural privilege for men. Unless we're going to count the privilege to be drafted, or murdered, or die on the job with nary a twitch of the feminist diaspora. >Anyway, I hope you have some opportunities to grow and realize lack of respect for a group of people seeking to be respected is a failure of imagination on your part That's rather nonsensical. Just because a group wants to be respected doesn't mean they deserve respect.
- ewzimm 13y ago
  If you believe that modern western cultures are not gender biased and this state of affairs is worth preserving, then you are a feminist! You can't deny it because you have just advocated for gender equality. Feminism advocates for autonomy for everyone. Everyone should be able to make choices about how to live their life instead of having those choices made for them. Everyone should have control over their own body. Everyone should have control over their own self image. You may not perceive it, but many people live in cultures in which they are strongly pushed toward ideal body types, lifestyles, and choices from many angles: family, community, media, friends. This affects both men and women. If people who live in traditionally patriarchal western cultures can now say honestly that they perceive no gender bias, then feminism has won. It may not have won the war, but it has at least won some battles, and it will continue fighting for equality for all.
  - aroch 13y ago
    No, you really don't get to sling this kind of bullshit around. > If you believe that modern western cultures are not gender biased and this state of affairs is worth preserving, then you are a feminist! You can't deny it because you have just advocated for gender equality. No, if you're going to insist on naming it, it is "egalitarian". I also don't believe this state of affairs is worth preserving. >Feminism advocates for autonomy for everyone. No, no it doesn't. Feminism, by design and definition, advocates for the rights of women. Or rather, I should say, "womyn" since large, vocal factions of the feminist movement don't support the rights of trans-people. But I'm guessing you're one of those feminists that like to no true scotsman those feminists out of play, I guess their opinion don't count. Also, fuck your patriarchy bullshit. It's a convenient scapegoat and surrogate evil upon which much of modern feminist dogma is based.
    - ewzimm 13y ago
      Well if you don't desire equality for all under the law, if you prefer special privileges based on gender or another arbitrary aspect, then you certainly aren't a feminist. I won't argue that point, but I hope you understand my meaning of egalitarianism. I've often seen it confused with advocating weakness when it in fact means that everyone is treated fairly and given equal opportunity. I'm interested in what kind of position you do hold about how society should be structured. Perhaps you prefer a meritocracy, but that would require egalitarianism as a base state. Feminists advocate for the rights of women but not exclusively so. We advocate equality and address inequalities. Feminists support men as well when they are victims of inequalities. Of course, feminism is a broad movement and not a dogmatic cult, and therefore you will find those who do not support the rights of trans people, but they are not representative of the majority of feminists. Since its inception in the 19th century, feminism has expanded to address all aspects of gender in culture and identity. Many feminists like myself do not consider gender to be a binary position but a spectrum of cultural expressions. It is therefore impossible to advocate the rights of women without advocating the rights of men because no one is entirely "man" or "woman." No one fits neatly into static gender stereotypes. The rights of trans, intersexed, and genderqueer people are extremely important as we move forward. In the long term, I feel it's especially important that we question traditional gender roles because we have an increasingly powerful ability to manipulate our biology. We will see increasing amounts of people with bodies and minds that do not conform to our expectations because they are fundamentally different, and we need to develop a cultural understanding for relating to people who do not conform to our preconceived notions of gender expression.

aroch 13y ago

>That doesn't mean that feminists hate men, white or otherwise, anymore than men hate women as a class of people. That's a nice false equivalence you've got there. >However, white men have a lot of cultural privilege Oh goody, you're hiding behind the boogieman, aka "privilege". In modern, "western" culture there's really no cultural privilege for men. Unless we're going to count the privilege to be drafted, or murdered, or die on the job with nary a twitch of the feminist diaspora. >Anyway, I hope you have some opportunities to grow and realize lack of respect for a group of people seeking to be respected is a failure of imagination on your part That's rather nonsensical. Just because a group wants to be respected doesn't mean they deserve respect.

ewzimm 13y ago
If you believe that modern western cultures are not gender biased and this state of affairs is worth preserving, then you are a feminist! You can't deny it because you have just advocated for gender equality. Feminism advocates for autonomy for everyone. Everyone should be able to make choices about how to live their life instead of having those choices made for them. Everyone should have control over their own body. Everyone should have control over their own self image. You may not perceive it, but many people live in cultures in which they are strongly pushed toward ideal body types, lifestyles, and choices from many angles: family, community, media, friends. This affects both men and women. If people who live in traditionally patriarchal western cultures can now say honestly that they perceive no gender bias, then feminism has won. It may not have won the war, but it has at least won some battles, and it will continue fighting for equality for all.
- aroch 13y ago
  No, you really don't get to sling this kind of bullshit around. > If you believe that modern western cultures are not gender biased and this state of affairs is worth preserving, then you are a feminist! You can't deny it because you have just advocated for gender equality. No, if you're going to insist on naming it, it is "egalitarian". I also don't believe this state of affairs is worth preserving. >Feminism advocates for autonomy for everyone. No, no it doesn't. Feminism, by design and definition, advocates for the rights of women. Or rather, I should say, "womyn" since large, vocal factions of the feminist movement don't support the rights of trans-people. But I'm guessing you're one of those feminists that like to no true scotsman those feminists out of play, I guess their opinion don't count. Also, fuck your patriarchy bullshit. It's a convenient scapegoat and surrogate evil upon which much of modern feminist dogma is based.
  - ewzimm 13y ago
    Well if you don't desire equality for all under the law, if you prefer special privileges based on gender or another arbitrary aspect, then you certainly aren't a feminist. I won't argue that point, but I hope you understand my meaning of egalitarianism. I've often seen it confused with advocating weakness when it in fact means that everyone is treated fairly and given equal opportunity. I'm interested in what kind of position you do hold about how society should be structured. Perhaps you prefer a meritocracy, but that would require egalitarianism as a base state. Feminists advocate for the rights of women but not exclusively so. We advocate equality and address inequalities. Feminists support men as well when they are victims of inequalities. Of course, feminism is a broad movement and not a dogmatic cult, and therefore you will find those who do not support the rights of trans people, but they are not representative of the majority of feminists. Since its inception in the 19th century, feminism has expanded to address all aspects of gender in culture and identity. Many feminists like myself do not consider gender to be a binary position but a spectrum of cultural expressions. It is therefore impossible to advocate the rights of women without advocating the rights of men because no one is entirely "man" or "woman." No one fits neatly into static gender stereotypes. The rights of trans, intersexed, and genderqueer people are extremely important as we move forward. In the long term, I feel it's especially important that we question traditional gender roles because we have an increasingly powerful ability to manipulate our biology. We will see increasing amounts of people with bodies and minds that do not conform to our expectations because they are fundamentally different, and we need to develop a cultural understanding for relating to people who do not conform to our preconceived notions of gender expression.