6 ms·

Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress

112 points by labinder 13y ago

allochthon 13y ago
My fear about this particular case is that there was a drone operator who did this out of boredom or fatigue, and then there was a coverup.
- rurounijones 13y ago
  Disclaimer: I am a gamer. Putting 21 year old kids* brought up on video-games (esp the "Call of Duty" and "Battlefield" crop) all their lives in charge of drones with very video-game like setup and interactions sounds like a pretty good recipe for disaster[1]. * Yes, I know they are not all that young but I have seen photos in the news and I would be surprised if they were any older. [1] "Scenario fulfillment" implicated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
  - vowelless 13y ago
    > very video-game like setup and interactions sounds like a pretty good recipe for disaster[1]. The Iran Air disaster had nothing to do with "video games" and "21 year old kids". It was a case of mistaken identity during a very turbulent time in the region. I think it is a red herring to refer to that disaster when talking about drone strikes.
    - rurounijones 13y ago
      I only referred to the the Iran Air disaster because "Scenario fulfillment" was implicated as playing a part in the problem. Being trained in various scenarios combined with a high-stress situation resulted in one of the crew misinterpreting the data and claiming the plane was diving (like an attack run) instead of climbing (which it was really doing) Basically it is scientific way of saying something like "force of habit" (with more to it, that is a bit of a dumbed-down view) Which I can easily see transferring to drone pilots raised on a diet of CoD, Battlefield etc. (There is a very good documentary about the entire Iran Air thing which talks about it, you can see it on youtube.)
  - philwelch 13y ago
    I take it you didn't see this story then: http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-pilot-assassination http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-... It was posted three days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6617732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6617732
- 77ko 13y ago
  An interview with a former drone operator: http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-pilot-assassination http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-...
peterkelly 13y ago
Can someone explain to me why this isn't classed as terrorism or murder when it's done by the US military?
- georgemcbay 13y ago
  The people killed are pretty brown.
- asadlionpk 13y ago
  because people of that region are worth far less. So less that they can't even classify this as a murder.
- codex 13y ago
  Do you believe the US is intentionally targeting civilians? If not, this war seems pretty similar to all wars.
  - asadlionpk 13y ago
    are they so ill-trained that they can't even fire straight? So noob-ish that they are shooting people in the middle of a field mistaken as a car.
  - r0h1n 13y ago
    Do you believe the US has never intentionally targeted civilians? Example 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/us/soldier-gets-life-without-parole-in-deaths-of-afghan-civilians.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/us/soldier-gets-life-witho... Example 2: http://www.collateralmurder.com/ http://www.collateralmurder.com/ Example 3: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-thin... Sadly, the second part of your comment still remains true. These wars (plural), are pretty similar to all wars because US soldiers and forces have at times been found indulging in the same acts - rapes, killings, indiscriminate bombings, torture - that rampaging armies do.
    - 13y ago
bruceb 13y ago
Make sure the nuclear weapons don't fall in to radical hands. Then clear out of other parts of the country. It is not our country. Let them rail against America without us pouring gas on the flames by us being there. I will go back to more startup related comments.
r0h1n 13y ago
This is also the reason the US is lobbying aggressively to ensure its soldiers have immunity from war crimes. WikiLeaks shows US pressure for war crimes immunity - https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55239 https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55239
RealGeek 13y ago
Middle east countries hate United States due to reckless behavior like this. US kills thousands of civilians overseas and they do the same to US in form of terrorist attacks. With these senseless attacks, US is spreading hate and putting US citizens at risk.
srean 13y ago
My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal. At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity of "wronged population of righteous Muslims") played in dragging their country to such a pathetic state where their sovereignty doesn't mean shit. A state when one of their erstwhile allies kill their citizens with impunity and political class doesn't do much about it apart from some token grandstanding. Much as I want this navel gazing to happen, I am also aware that ruling political classes of countries are typically so sociopathic that they are incapable of feeling responsible, a fact made very convenient now that there is mean old US to point to. India managed to avoid this trajectory. Rather than patting ourselves on the back, I am acutely aware of how close a shave it was and still is. There are strong political forces in India that want to make it a Hindu hegemony. Their tools of propaganda are just the same and quite effective, the same "wronged population of righteous Hindus that meant and did nobody any harm". If that happens we wont be that far away from a Hindu version of current Pakistan. This thought terrifies me. @einhverfr I am replying here because I strongly suspect that what I say will touch many a nerve and will lead to a long thread hijacking the original post, and by that I dont mean you personally. Please feel free to respond in the same way. Encouraging the wronged muslim identity and consequent Jihadism was very much an "in center" phenomena in Pakistan rather than the machinations of some fringe local state. Note the use of 'was' these things go back several decades in history. I think Pakistan under Jinnah would have fared much better had he lived longer. @r0h1n spot on. @mcantelon sure they did, a valid question is what did people in charge then do about it. @prometheuspk India escaped and does, but just barely. It's a complicated mess, there are political parties that exploit the fact that many in India want to avoid the religious hegemony. These parties have been getting away with things that they should not be allowed to get away with. This fuels its own blowback...You mention Malala. Malala for US is I think convenient PR fodder, something useful to screen/decorate their drone program with. I dont even think they do it conciously. Everyone wants to see themselves as compassionate and fair. @zzsleepzz thank you for illustrating my point. Heh! there you go. downvotes start rolling in, did not expect any different though. Interesting, the story suddenly drops out from first page inspite of 90 upvotes in less than 3 hrs. Seems it just got flagged. That I did not see coming.
ganeshmr 13y ago
all this after the person authorizing these has be awarded Nobel Peace Prize. Not respecting integrity of country and striking it at will because one can, is recipe for disaster. May be they wont strike back now but not many forget these things.
malandrew 13y ago
It argues its campaign is conducted "consistent with all applicable domestic and international law". Unofficial reports, however, have suggested that hundreds have been killed in Pakistan alone, with up to 200 children killed. So how exactly are drone strikes in countries we are not at war with "consistent with all applicable domestic and international law". I imagine that it should at least be considered murder according to Pakistani law (and other countries where these strikes take place) and that it would be within the rights of these countries to demand extradition of the individuals complicit in the crime so that can stand trial in Pakistan (and other countries). The US obviously won't acquiesce to extradition requests for the crime of murder that it considers legitimate, but that doesn't mean that those committing crimes cannot be arrested while traveling abroad to countries that do have extradition treaties with Pakistan and other countries in question. What international laws allow this to continue? If I were a citizen of a country where these remote drone attacks were taking place and no war has been declared, I would be campaigning to put every person directly responsible on the list of criminals wanted internationally and have them arrested by my allies if those criminals travel to my allies' country. I would be far more comfortable with what is going on if there were a requirement that all drone operators had to be citizens of the countries being targeted. They can be supervised and trained by Americans, but the trigger must be pulled by a fellow countryman. If we can't find people to do that, then we need to cease what we are doing or formally declare war via a Congressional vote. Alternatively, we could request or even fund that Pakistan and other countries send in police to arrest those responsible with a drone on standby and only send in the drone if the person refuses to be arrested peacefully. The moment they fire back on the Pakistani police with weapons, the drone would be sent in to resolve the conflict. Either way, fellow citizens of those targeted should be directly involved in these attacks or they should not occur at all. Sentencing people to death without trial is un-American. What happens when we've killed as many innocents as were killed on September 11th on US soil? Death of innocents from above is simply unjustified.

112 points by labinder 13y ago

My fear about this particular case is that there was a drone operator who did this out of boredom or fatigue, and then there was a coverup.

rurounijones 13y ago
Disclaimer: I am a gamer. Putting 21 year old kids* brought up on video-games (esp the "Call of Duty" and "Battlefield" crop) all their lives in charge of drones with very video-game like setup and interactions sounds like a pretty good recipe for disaster[1]. * Yes, I know they are not all that young but I have seen photos in the news and I would be surprised if they were any older. [1] "Scenario fulfillment" implicated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
- vowelless 13y ago
  > very video-game like setup and interactions sounds like a pretty good recipe for disaster[1]. The Iran Air disaster had nothing to do with "video games" and "21 year old kids". It was a case of mistaken identity during a very turbulent time in the region. I think it is a red herring to refer to that disaster when talking about drone strikes.
  - rurounijones 13y ago
    I only referred to the the Iran Air disaster because "Scenario fulfillment" was implicated as playing a part in the problem. Being trained in various scenarios combined with a high-stress situation resulted in one of the crew misinterpreting the data and claiming the plane was diving (like an attack run) instead of climbing (which it was really doing) Basically it is scientific way of saying something like "force of habit" (with more to it, that is a bit of a dumbed-down view) Which I can easily see transferring to drone pilots raised on a diet of CoD, Battlefield etc. (There is a very good documentary about the entire Iran Air thing which talks about it, you can see it on youtube.)
- philwelch 13y ago
  I take it you didn't see this story then: http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-pilot-assassination http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-... It was posted three days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6617732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6617732
77ko 13y ago
An interview with a former drone operator: http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-pilot-assassination http://www.gq.com/news-politics/big-issues/201311/drone-uav-...

peterkelly 13y ago

Can someone explain to me why this isn't classed as terrorism or murder when it's done by the US military?

georgemcbay 13y ago
The people killed are pretty brown.
asadlionpk 13y ago
because people of that region are worth far less. So less that they can't even classify this as a murder.
codex 13y ago
Do you believe the US is intentionally targeting civilians? If not, this war seems pretty similar to all wars.
- asadlionpk 13y ago
  are they so ill-trained that they can't even fire straight? So noob-ish that they are shooting people in the middle of a field mistaken as a car.
- r0h1n 13y ago
  Do you believe the US has never intentionally targeted civilians? Example 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/us/soldier-gets-life-without-parole-in-deaths-of-afghan-civilians.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/us/soldier-gets-life-witho... Example 2: http://www.collateralmurder.com/ http://www.collateralmurder.com/ Example 3: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says-U-S-soldier-raped-14-year-old-girl-killing-her-family.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-thin... Sadly, the second part of your comment still remains true. These wars (plural), are pretty similar to all wars because US soldiers and forces have at times been found indulging in the same acts - rapes, killings, indiscriminate bombings, torture - that rampaging armies do.
  - 13y ago

bruceb 13y ago

Make sure the nuclear weapons don't fall in to radical hands. Then clear out of other parts of the country. It is not our country. Let them rail against America without us pouring gas on the flames by us being there. I will go back to more startup related comments.

r0h1n 13y ago

This is also the reason the US is lobbying aggressively to ensure its soldiers have immunity from war crimes. WikiLeaks shows US pressure for war crimes immunity - https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55239 https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55239

RealGeek 13y ago

Middle east countries hate United States due to reckless behavior like this. US kills thousands of civilians overseas and they do the same to US in form of terrorist attacks. With these senseless attacks, US is spreading hate and putting US citizens at risk.

srean 13y ago

My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal. At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building this identity of "wronged population of righteous Muslims") played in dragging their country to such a pathetic state where their sovereignty doesn't mean shit. A state when one of their erstwhile allies kill their citizens with impunity and political class doesn't do much about it apart from some token grandstanding. Much as I want this navel gazing to happen, I am also aware that ruling political classes of countries are typically so sociopathic that they are incapable of feeling responsible, a fact made very convenient now that there is mean old US to point to. India managed to avoid this trajectory. Rather than patting ourselves on the back, I am acutely aware of how close a shave it was and still is. There are strong political forces in India that want to make it a Hindu hegemony. Their tools of propaganda are just the same and quite effective, the same "wronged population of righteous Hindus that meant and did nobody any harm". If that happens we wont be that far away from a Hindu version of current Pakistan. This thought terrifies me. @einhverfr I am replying here because I strongly suspect that what I say will touch many a nerve and will lead to a long thread hijacking the original post, and by that I dont mean you personally. Please feel free to respond in the same way. Encouraging the wronged muslim identity and consequent Jihadism was very much an "in center" phenomena in Pakistan rather than the machinations of some fringe local state. Note the use of 'was' these things go back several decades in history. I think Pakistan under Jinnah would have fared much better had he lived longer. @r0h1n spot on. @mcantelon sure they did, a valid question is what did people in charge then do about it. @prometheuspk India escaped and does, but just barely. It's a complicated mess, there are political parties that exploit the fact that many in India want to avoid the religious hegemony. These parties have been getting away with things that they should not be allowed to get away with. This fuels its own blowback...You mention Malala. Malala for US is I think convenient PR fodder, something useful to screen/decorate their drone program with. I dont even think they do it conciously. Everyone wants to see themselves as compassionate and fair. @zzsleepzz thank you for illustrating my point. Heh! there you go. downvotes start rolling in, did not expect any different though. Interesting, the story suddenly drops out from first page inspite of 90 upvotes in less than 3 hrs. Seems it just got flagged. That I did not see coming.

ganeshmr 13y ago

all this after the person authorizing these has be awarded Nobel Peace Prize. Not respecting integrity of country and striking it at will because one can, is recipe for disaster. May be they wont strike back now but not many forget these things.

malandrew 13y ago

It argues its campaign is conducted "consistent with all applicable domestic and international law". Unofficial reports, however, have suggested that hundreds have been killed in Pakistan alone, with up to 200 children killed. So how exactly are drone strikes in countries we are not at war with "consistent with all applicable domestic and international law". I imagine that it should at least be considered murder according to Pakistani law (and other countries where these strikes take place) and that it would be within the rights of these countries to demand extradition of the individuals complicit in the crime so that can stand trial in Pakistan (and other countries). The US obviously won't acquiesce to extradition requests for the crime of murder that it considers legitimate, but that doesn't mean that those committing crimes cannot be arrested while traveling abroad to countries that do have extradition treaties with Pakistan and other countries in question. What international laws allow this to continue? If I were a citizen of a country where these remote drone attacks were taking place and no war has been declared, I would be campaigning to put every person directly responsible on the list of criminals wanted internationally and have them arrested by my allies if those criminals travel to my allies' country. I would be far more comfortable with what is going on if there were a requirement that all drone operators had to be citizens of the countries being targeted. They can be supervised and trained by Americans, but the trigger must be pulled by a fellow countryman. If we can't find people to do that, then we need to cease what we are doing or formally declare war via a Congressional vote. Alternatively, we could request or even fund that Pakistan and other countries send in police to arrest those responsible with a drone on standby and only send in the drone if the person refuses to be arrested peacefully. The moment they fire back on the Pakistani police with weapons, the drone would be sent in to resolve the conflict. Either way, fellow citizens of those targeted should be directly involved in these attacks or they should not occur at all. Sentencing people to death without trial is un-American. What happens when we've killed as many innocents as were killed on September 11th on US soil? Death of innocents from above is simply unjustified.