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Nope, people with Django experience are definitely not off the list. PHP isn't off the list either, though the signal-to-noise in that community does seem (anec

Nope, people with Django experience are definitely not off the list. PHP isn't off the list either, though the signal-to-noise in that community does seem (anecdotally) to be a lot lower. In my experience people cast a wide net for senior candidates in terms of what they've worked on, the important thing is how they've worked, what roles they've taken, what teams and projects they've led and shipped. Basically, people that can be trusted to build a solid foundation for the more junior candidates to build on top of. Even with a wide net on the specifics of their experience, candidates like that are still not easy to find.

gambler 13y ago
Is this specified in your position description? Because that's anything but standard. I feel a lot of employers are exceptionally bad at communicating their actual requirement. Ironically, one of the sure sighs that your job description is bullshit is having a line that says "excellent communication skills". Anything about "fast-paced environment" too.
- nbouscal 13y ago
  Well, at risk of going on a bit of a tangent here, realistically my experience in every field is that a distinct minority of jobs ever get filled through formal job advertisements. The vast majority of hiring happens through referrals and networking. Bringing it back to tech specifically, in my (anecdotal) experience people are rarely bothered by lack of knowledge of a specific framework assuming that the candidate has experience in something similar, or more generally if it is safe to believe that the candidate can get up to speed and contribute in a reasonable amount of time. At this point we are of course just comparing anecdotes. I will also note, though, that there are a lot of very different subsectors within tech, and hiring practices vary widely between them. In accordance with the venue I am here mostly referring to startups (including late-stage startups).
Jormundir 13y ago
With all the articles about how terrible just about every company is with hiring, do you think maybe the "talent shortage" is a misnomer and side-effect of companies being outright terrible at judging "talent"?
- nbouscal 13y ago
  I think that both phenomena exist and that both contribute to the problem. Which is more significant is hard to tell. In my experience, the talent gap is a bigger problem, but I'm sure there are plenty of people with the opposite experience.
  - Jormundir 13y ago
    Well based on what you said, the claim that there is a "talent shortage" seems baseless, given that companies are unable to judge talent. I suppose the salaries of engineers are evidence enough that there is a talent shortage. Though, I've been perusing for a job and would not respond to maybe 85% of job postings because companies can't clearly articulate what they do and what the position they're offering is. I've been to plenty of interviews where they clearly haven't looked at my github, and then ask me odd, incredibly domain specific algorithm questions, and then turn me down as untalented. I've been to plenty of interviews where they think I'm talent, but in all their bragging about how talented their team is, I see signs of lazy engineers. I think your judgement of how small the hiring problem is is way off. Coupled with companies' unwillingness to hire and train mid-level engineers to senior level (which really only takes a few months with an interested candidate) is the bigger problem.
    - nbouscal 13y ago
      Some companies are unable to judge talent. Others are able to judge talent quite well, and those companies still have difficulty hiring (mainly at the mid to senior level). That is my argument for there being a talent shortage. Re job postings, most jobs are not filled through job postings. If you want to find a job at a company that knows how to hire, you will have much better luck if you find the opening through networking or a referral. I have literally never got an engineering job through any other channel. (Note that this does not serve as evidence toward your indictment of HR, most networking/referral hires still go through HR to at least some extent).

gambler 13y ago

Is this specified in your position description? Because that's anything but standard. I feel a lot of employers are exceptionally bad at communicating their actual requirement. Ironically, one of the sure sighs that your job description is bullshit is having a line that says "excellent communication skills". Anything about "fast-paced environment" too.

nbouscal 13y ago
Well, at risk of going on a bit of a tangent here, realistically my experience in every field is that a distinct minority of jobs ever get filled through formal job advertisements. The vast majority of hiring happens through referrals and networking. Bringing it back to tech specifically, in my (anecdotal) experience people are rarely bothered by lack of knowledge of a specific framework assuming that the candidate has experience in something similar, or more generally if it is safe to believe that the candidate can get up to speed and contribute in a reasonable amount of time. At this point we are of course just comparing anecdotes. I will also note, though, that there are a lot of very different subsectors within tech, and hiring practices vary widely between them. In accordance with the venue I am here mostly referring to startups (including late-stage startups).

Jormundir 13y ago

With all the articles about how terrible just about every company is with hiring, do you think maybe the "talent shortage" is a misnomer and side-effect of companies being outright terrible at judging "talent"?

nbouscal 13y ago
I think that both phenomena exist and that both contribute to the problem. Which is more significant is hard to tell. In my experience, the talent gap is a bigger problem, but I'm sure there are plenty of people with the opposite experience.
- Jormundir 13y ago
  Well based on what you said, the claim that there is a "talent shortage" seems baseless, given that companies are unable to judge talent. I suppose the salaries of engineers are evidence enough that there is a talent shortage. Though, I've been perusing for a job and would not respond to maybe 85% of job postings because companies can't clearly articulate what they do and what the position they're offering is. I've been to plenty of interviews where they clearly haven't looked at my github, and then ask me odd, incredibly domain specific algorithm questions, and then turn me down as untalented. I've been to plenty of interviews where they think I'm talent, but in all their bragging about how talented their team is, I see signs of lazy engineers. I think your judgement of how small the hiring problem is is way off. Coupled with companies' unwillingness to hire and train mid-level engineers to senior level (which really only takes a few months with an interested candidate) is the bigger problem.
  - nbouscal 13y ago
    Some companies are unable to judge talent. Others are able to judge talent quite well, and those companies still have difficulty hiring (mainly at the mid to senior level). That is my argument for there being a talent shortage. Re job postings, most jobs are not filled through job postings. If you want to find a job at a company that knows how to hire, you will have much better luck if you find the opening through networking or a referral. I have literally never got an engineering job through any other channel. (Note that this does not serve as evidence toward your indictment of HR, most networking/referral hires still go through HR to at least some extent).