4 ms·

5&6 - it is nonsense to lay the blame for any aspect of the ACA/Obamacare at the feet of the Republicans (they hated on a lot more than the death panels, many t

5&6 - it is nonsense to lay the blame for any aspect of the ACA/Obamacare at the feet of the Republicans (they hated on a lot more than the death panels, many things that also came to be). The Democrats own every vote in its favor, and they could have any version of the bill they desired. They are responsible for any perceived problems with the legislation.

mikeyouse 13y ago
That's an interesting view that doesn't really reflect history or political reality. Do remember that the democrats lost their supermajority in the senate when Ted Kennedy died. If democrats could have truly passed any version of the bill they desired, it would likely be a single-payer system or at bare minimum include the public option. Why didn't either of those come to be? Also, when a party is actively lying, and has convinced almost 50% of their dimwitted backers that a new law is going to actively kill senior citizens, it's safe to lay some of the blame for the exclusion of that provision at the feet of that political party.
- nilsbunger 13y ago
  Because they thought they could get a few moderate republican votes until the very end. In the end, thought, your parent post is correct. They got 0 republican votes on it, so they could've made it anything they wanted that they all agreed on and wouldn't be ruled unconstitutional.
  - mikeyouse 13y ago
    In the end, thought, your parent post is correct. It's still wrong. The PPACA passed the senate before Ted Kennedy died. When it became clear that the republicans wouldn't vote for any provision, the democrats had two options. 1. Start over with a new, more aggressive bill 2. Pass the senate bill in the house Since Scott Brown took away the 60-seat supermajority in the senate, the republicans could have completely scuttled any bill at all in the senate, preventing even modest changes to health care. The D's had no option but to pass the PPACA. * * * Late Edit since people take exception to my last line above:* * * The D's technically did have a choice to not pass the PPACA. However, since 0 republicans would vote for any health care reform, their two options were either pass PPACA in the house, or not pass any health care reform. If they had neglected to pass any health care bills, all of their political capital would have been wasted along with several years of debate in congress. It was clear at the time that the 2010 census would provide numerous gerrymandering opportunities to the Rs (who had state-level majorities in many states), which would lead to unavoidable democratic losses in the next election. Add to those losses the impact of a non-presidential election cycle, and the wasted political capital and lack of progress on health care reform, and it was clear that for health care reform to pass in the decade, it would have to be the PPACA.
    - 001sky 13y ago
      The D's had no option but to pass the PPACA. Clearly they had every option. Including, doing something different. These are senators, not 5 year old children.
      - commandar 13y ago
        >These are senators, not 5 year old children. The behavior of Ted Cruz, et al successfully shutting down the government for a few weeks over something party leadership told them wasn't winnable would seem to indicate that there's really not that much difference between the two. Yes, it's worse now, but it was already headed there when the ACA was passed.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        WildUtah 13y ago
        I'm writing just to point out that Ted Cruz had nothing to do with the government shutdown, except taking unearned credit for it. House Republicans were the body that planned and forced the shutdown. The Senate passed a clean CR over minority objections before the shutdown. I would not deny that the Honorable Junior Senator from Texas does comport himself like a five year old.
        commandar 13y ago
        You are, of course, correct. While Cruz was essentially the face of the wing of the party responsible for the shutdown, he didn't have a direct vote causing it. The point still stands, however, that the party leadership did not want that fight and knew that they were unlikely to get any real concessions. Boehner, for all his flaws, got pushed into it by the even more unreasonable element of the GOP.
    - jerf 13y ago
      "The D's had no option but to pass the PPACA." Yes, they did. They could have not passed it. It's an option that is likely to look increasingly attractive in hindsight over the next year or two.
- profgubler 13y ago
  Because those systems couldn't even get the votes from their own party.
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  Since they could have passed any bill they wanted to, you'll have to ask them why they passed what they did. Parent's point is still valid - Republicans had zero input. If it's really true that Republican backers are dimwitted, what's anyone supposed to do about that? Why can't the Democrats win them over with better messaging? Shouldn't be too hard. They're dimwits, after all.
  - mikeyouse 13y ago
    There are a litany of reasons to oppose the PPACA. Opposing it doesn't make anyone dimwitted. If you were one of the 47% of republicans who thought that the bill included death panels, you unfortunately are dimwitted. It's an insane premise that becomes even more absurd when thought about for a microsecond. Why can't the Democrats win them over with better messaging? That's a great question, and a huge problem in politics. How do you prevent obvious lies and bullshit distractions from impacting elections? Remember Howard Dean's scream [1]? Or John Kerry's swiftboat exaggerations [2]? Or how 47% of people don't pay income taxes[3]? Or how much larger the government is under Obama[4]? [1] - http://washingtonexaminer.com/howard-deans-scream-tv-screwed-him/article/2515137 http://washingtonexaminer.com/howard-deans-scream-tv-screwed... [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_con... [3] - http://www.marketplace.org/topics/elections/campaign-trail/numbers-behind-mitt-romneys-47-comment http://www.marketplace.org/topics/elections/campaign-trail/n... [4a] - http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=nQE http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=nQE [4b] - http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=nQF http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=nQF
    - nsxwolf 13y ago
      Interesting read on the scream. When I first heard it on TV, it just struck me as a goofy sounding "Yeah!"... I had a chuckle and that was that. I never understood how it got the legs it did.

mikeyouse 13y ago

That's an interesting view that doesn't really reflect history or political reality. Do remember that the democrats lost their supermajority in the senate when Ted Kennedy died. If democrats could have truly passed any version of the bill they desired, it would likely be a single-payer system or at bare minimum include the public option. Why didn't either of those come to be? Also, when a party is actively lying, and has convinced almost 50% of their dimwitted backers that a new law is going to actively kill senior citizens, it's safe to lay some of the blame for the exclusion of that provision at the feet of that political party.

nilsbunger 13y ago
Because they thought they could get a few moderate republican votes until the very end. In the end, thought, your parent post is correct. They got 0 republican votes on it, so they could've made it anything they wanted that they all agreed on and wouldn't be ruled unconstitutional.
- mikeyouse 13y ago
  In the end, thought, your parent post is correct. It's still wrong. The PPACA passed the senate before Ted Kennedy died. When it became clear that the republicans wouldn't vote for any provision, the democrats had two options. 1. Start over with a new, more aggressive bill 2. Pass the senate bill in the house Since Scott Brown took away the 60-seat supermajority in the senate, the republicans could have completely scuttled any bill at all in the senate, preventing even modest changes to health care. The D's had no option but to pass the PPACA. * * * Late Edit since people take exception to my last line above:* * * The D's technically did have a choice to not pass the PPACA. However, since 0 republicans would vote for any health care reform, their two options were either pass PPACA in the house, or not pass any health care reform. If they had neglected to pass any health care bills, all of their political capital would have been wasted along with several years of debate in congress. It was clear at the time that the 2010 census would provide numerous gerrymandering opportunities to the Rs (who had state-level majorities in many states), which would lead to unavoidable democratic losses in the next election. Add to those losses the impact of a non-presidential election cycle, and the wasted political capital and lack of progress on health care reform, and it was clear that for health care reform to pass in the decade, it would have to be the PPACA.
  - 001sky 13y ago
    The D's had no option but to pass the PPACA. Clearly they had every option. Including, doing something different. These are senators, not 5 year old children.
    - commandar 13y ago
      >These are senators, not 5 year old children. The behavior of Ted Cruz, et al successfully shutting down the government for a few weeks over something party leadership told them wasn't winnable would seem to indicate that there's really not that much difference between the two. Yes, it's worse now, but it was already headed there when the ACA was passed.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - WildUtah 13y ago
        I'm writing just to point out that Ted Cruz had nothing to do with the government shutdown, except taking unearned credit for it. House Republicans were the body that planned and forced the shutdown. The Senate passed a clean CR over minority objections before the shutdown. I would not deny that the Honorable Junior Senator from Texas does comport himself like a five year old.
        commandar 13y ago
        You are, of course, correct. While Cruz was essentially the face of the wing of the party responsible for the shutdown, he didn't have a direct vote causing it. The point still stands, however, that the party leadership did not want that fight and knew that they were unlikely to get any real concessions. Boehner, for all his flaws, got pushed into it by the even more unreasonable element of the GOP.
  - jerf 13y ago
    "The D's had no option but to pass the PPACA." Yes, they did. They could have not passed it. It's an option that is likely to look increasingly attractive in hindsight over the next year or two.
profgubler 13y ago
Because those systems couldn't even get the votes from their own party.
nsxwolf 13y ago
Since they could have passed any bill they wanted to, you'll have to ask them why they passed what they did. Parent's point is still valid - Republicans had zero input. If it's really true that Republican backers are dimwitted, what's anyone supposed to do about that? Why can't the Democrats win them over with better messaging? Shouldn't be too hard. They're dimwits, after all.
- mikeyouse 13y ago
  There are a litany of reasons to oppose the PPACA. Opposing it doesn't make anyone dimwitted. If you were one of the 47% of republicans who thought that the bill included death panels, you unfortunately are dimwitted. It's an insane premise that becomes even more absurd when thought about for a microsecond. Why can't the Democrats win them over with better messaging? That's a great question, and a huge problem in politics. How do you prevent obvious lies and bullshit distractions from impacting elections? Remember Howard Dean's scream [1]? Or John Kerry's swiftboat exaggerations [2]? Or how 47% of people don't pay income taxes[3]? Or how much larger the government is under Obama[4]? [1] - http://washingtonexaminer.com/howard-deans-scream-tv-screwed-him/article/2515137 http://washingtonexaminer.com/howard-deans-scream-tv-screwed... [2] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_con... [3] - http://www.marketplace.org/topics/elections/campaign-trail/numbers-behind-mitt-romneys-47-comment http://www.marketplace.org/topics/elections/campaign-trail/n... [4a] - http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=nQE http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=nQE [4b] - http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=nQF http://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.png?g=nQF
  - nsxwolf 13y ago
    Interesting read on the scream. When I first heard it on TV, it just struck me as a goofy sounding "Yeah!"... I had a chuckle and that was that. I never understood how it got the legs it did.