7 ms·

Their argument that their targeting creates massive value is only correct so long as their competitors don't catch up. Linkedin, though, is building out its adv

Their argument that their targeting creates massive value is only correct so long as their competitors don't catch up. Linkedin, though, is building out its advertising tools and API and allows for really good targeting based on more accurate job positions than Facebook can provide, which is often more useful. If a company pays for their facebook likes through advertising, why should they then need to pay again to advertise to this same group of people with a sponsored post? It really changes the ROI of a facebook like.

moron4hire 13y ago
Has anyone been able to prove yet that social marketing can successfully build sales and not just more social-network following? "Likes" are nice, but they aren't green in my pocket.
- ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
  Likes prevent people from leaving. They let your potential customers browsing your site know "hey, we're not a scammer there are real people who bought and loved our products and services, here's a authentic list of them."
  - duaneb 13y ago
    > They let your potential customers browsing your site know "hey, we're not a scammer there are real people who bought and loved our products and services, here's a authentic list of them." More like "We will annoy you with social network notifications, sell your data, and pollute your facebook page". EDIT: Certainly not everyone, but if you ignore the downsides you're not spending your money well. Being polite with respect to interacting with your customer is value in itself, and you cheapen your brand by including social buttons. Even the choice of button matters: including a share button treats me with more respect than like buttons AND provides a much higher quality recommendation for your brand per click, even if the clicks go down. If you're advertising on Facebook without testing which provides better numbers at the end of the quarter, you're probably not spending your money as well as you could.
    - ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
      You're following ideology over reality. You have a one sided point of view, a negative one at that, and where... may I ask is your e-commerce site that's devoid of "cheapening" social buttons? I've got thousands in revenue at my little http://dayonepp.com http://dayonepp.com store. And why are you so negative and hostile towards something over 1 billion people signed up for?
  - moron4hire 13y ago
    But does it? That's the rationalization, but does it actually? I see a million likes on a page and I think "someone paid for a million likes". Does it actually translate to sales? Or is it all just the ol' 90s hitcounter? And since I acknowledge that it must work for someone (just like Nigerian Prince Scams work on someone), the more important question is, "and is it worth the effort and cost?" I could spend weeks building a social following for a local business, or I could run a coupon deasl.
    - the_watcher 13y ago
      Don't think of likes as "getting someone to like my page will make them more likely to buy." You need to think of them as "this increases the network of people who will interact with my content, ads or otherwise, thus spreading them to their friends organically (so I don't pay)." This actually should discourage people from buying scammy likes, because that network will be substantially more valuable if it is more representative of who you want to reach.
    - ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
      1) YOU are NOT the average customer. You're one of us, you're immune to most of the social media marketing that consumers pay attention to. 2) It's FREE. Create a facebook page for your business, upload a photo, copy paste the like box code and call it a day. Jesus Christ what do you have to lose?
- cullenking 13y ago
  FB is the largest single referrer to our site. Using google analytics tracking, I can see that inbounds from facebook are directly linked to tens of thousands of dollars in sales. I have had terrible luck with facebook advertising, but we get great results when people share their bike rides on our site using facebook. Their friends who are probably bicyclists themselves see the link and come through our funnel. You need both a good funnel, and a message that provides value to a user. It has been crudely expressed as "do you get your user laid", less crudely as "make your user look cool". If you do this, then they'll share your service to all their friends for free. In our case, someone is proud to ride 100 miles, and they'd like to show it off. Our tool let's them do it, so they paste it around on facebook. It's all about your value prop and how someone feels sharing that with others.
  - duaneb 13y ago
    > I have had terrible luck with facebook advertising, but we get great results when people share their bike rides on our site using facebook. Well I think that's an interesting point—this isn't what I typically think of with facebook advertising (i.e. "like" shopping). Figuring out a way for users to demonstrate to other users the value of your product is pretty much ideal, though—it scales very well and I would imagine it's much, much more effective than traditional, sidebar advertisements. Why don't they emphasize this more? I would assume likes are more valuable to them directly as opposed to advertisers....
- the_watcher 13y ago
  Facebook advertising has been a massive win for us, and we are seeing > 80% of our Facebook customers are new. It's simply a huge piece of the internet that we were not hitting, because, while the intent piece of Google search is great, there are many people who don't even know our product exists. TV advertising has developed the way it has for a reason.
  - duaneb 13y ago
    Have you controlled for all factors? This seems like circumstantial evidence at best; just because facebook customers are new doesn't imply that the improvement is due to facebook.
    - the_watcher 13y ago
      You are right, we could definitely do more work on controlling all factors here. However, the numbers are so staggering (80% of a not insubstantial group of customers - something we haven't seen in any of our other channels), coupled with the anecdotal evidence we've gathered from surveys and monitoring the comments we get on Facebook (I know, not data, but in the absence of data, I make do) that it seems likely. This is also something that AdRoll has seen - they only see ~19% overlap between people who click through their general display and FBX ads (I haven't seen the study, but they imply that they did some extensive research here).
duaneb 13y ago
Google Ads target people who can't tell the difference between search results and ads. LinkedIn succeeds because they have ads people actually want to click—virtually everyone needs employment, and generally jobs are far more valuable than anything else advertised online. Any given ad for employment will be many, many, many times more interesting to any given person than any given ad on the internet will be. Facebook has very little worth selling to a young audience that will never click online ads. Who goes to Facebook to find ways to spend money? It's a social network with little relevance to commercial interests (for end users). Market-specific businesses will almost always beat out the special interests—facebook would probably get more money selling users to specialized advertising customers on demand, or even getting users to pay to make ads/stupid "features" (Games! Anything involving microtransactions! Bugging me to like things I have no desire to like!) go away. Speaking of which, how is the model of pay-to-remove-ads not more prevalent? Surely it wouldn't REDUCE profits.
- c0ur7n3y 13y ago
  Well, I think Facebook would have a hard time making the transition from advertisers being their customers to users being their customers. They'd have to listen to their users if they did that. That sounds expensive.
  - duaneb 13y ago
    > They'd have to listen to their users if they did that. That sounds expensive. You know what else is expensive? When everyone hates your brand.
- the_watcher 13y ago
  >> Facebook has very little worth selling to a young audience that will never click online ads. The numbers have shown that this is provably false.
  - duaneb 13y ago
    > The numbers have shown that this is provably false. I'd love to be proven false! Hit me.
the_watcher 13y ago
I agree that LinkedIn is doing some really cool stuff with their ad tools. However, while the targeting is really useful, people are just less engaged with LinkedIn as a whole. The best piece of advice I got for improving our LinkedIn ads was to target groups, since people that are in the groups pages tend to be much more engaged with the page than anywhere else on LinkedIn. Excited to see where they go though.
morganb180 13y ago
The CPC's on LinkedIn are really high (for self serve anyway) which make ROI really hard except for high LTV products/services. I can get clicks on Facebook similarly targeted for <$0.10 for what LI charged $4.

moron4hire 13y ago

Has anyone been able to prove yet that social marketing can successfully build sales and not just more social-network following? "Likes" are nice, but they aren't green in my pocket.

ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
Likes prevent people from leaving. They let your potential customers browsing your site know "hey, we're not a scammer there are real people who bought and loved our products and services, here's a authentic list of them."
- duaneb 13y ago
  > They let your potential customers browsing your site know "hey, we're not a scammer there are real people who bought and loved our products and services, here's a authentic list of them." More like "We will annoy you with social network notifications, sell your data, and pollute your facebook page". EDIT: Certainly not everyone, but if you ignore the downsides you're not spending your money well. Being polite with respect to interacting with your customer is value in itself, and you cheapen your brand by including social buttons. Even the choice of button matters: including a share button treats me with more respect than like buttons AND provides a much higher quality recommendation for your brand per click, even if the clicks go down. If you're advertising on Facebook without testing which provides better numbers at the end of the quarter, you're probably not spending your money as well as you could.
  - ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
    You're following ideology over reality. You have a one sided point of view, a negative one at that, and where... may I ask is your e-commerce site that's devoid of "cheapening" social buttons? I've got thousands in revenue at my little http://dayonepp.com http://dayonepp.com store. And why are you so negative and hostile towards something over 1 billion people signed up for?
- moron4hire 13y ago
  But does it? That's the rationalization, but does it actually? I see a million likes on a page and I think "someone paid for a million likes". Does it actually translate to sales? Or is it all just the ol' 90s hitcounter? And since I acknowledge that it must work for someone (just like Nigerian Prince Scams work on someone), the more important question is, "and is it worth the effort and cost?" I could spend weeks building a social following for a local business, or I could run a coupon deasl.
  - the_watcher 13y ago
    Don't think of likes as "getting someone to like my page will make them more likely to buy." You need to think of them as "this increases the network of people who will interact with my content, ads or otherwise, thus spreading them to their friends organically (so I don't pay)." This actually should discourage people from buying scammy likes, because that network will be substantially more valuable if it is more representative of who you want to reach.
  - ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
    1) YOU are NOT the average customer. You're one of us, you're immune to most of the social media marketing that consumers pay attention to. 2) It's FREE. Create a facebook page for your business, upload a photo, copy paste the like box code and call it a day. Jesus Christ what do you have to lose?
cullenking 13y ago
FB is the largest single referrer to our site. Using google analytics tracking, I can see that inbounds from facebook are directly linked to tens of thousands of dollars in sales. I have had terrible luck with facebook advertising, but we get great results when people share their bike rides on our site using facebook. Their friends who are probably bicyclists themselves see the link and come through our funnel. You need both a good funnel, and a message that provides value to a user. It has been crudely expressed as "do you get your user laid", less crudely as "make your user look cool". If you do this, then they'll share your service to all their friends for free. In our case, someone is proud to ride 100 miles, and they'd like to show it off. Our tool let's them do it, so they paste it around on facebook. It's all about your value prop and how someone feels sharing that with others.
- duaneb 13y ago
  > I have had terrible luck with facebook advertising, but we get great results when people share their bike rides on our site using facebook. Well I think that's an interesting point—this isn't what I typically think of with facebook advertising (i.e. "like" shopping). Figuring out a way for users to demonstrate to other users the value of your product is pretty much ideal, though—it scales very well and I would imagine it's much, much more effective than traditional, sidebar advertisements. Why don't they emphasize this more? I would assume likes are more valuable to them directly as opposed to advertisers....
the_watcher 13y ago
Facebook advertising has been a massive win for us, and we are seeing > 80% of our Facebook customers are new. It's simply a huge piece of the internet that we were not hitting, because, while the intent piece of Google search is great, there are many people who don't even know our product exists. TV advertising has developed the way it has for a reason.
- duaneb 13y ago
  Have you controlled for all factors? This seems like circumstantial evidence at best; just because facebook customers are new doesn't imply that the improvement is due to facebook.
  - the_watcher 13y ago
    You are right, we could definitely do more work on controlling all factors here. However, the numbers are so staggering (80% of a not insubstantial group of customers - something we haven't seen in any of our other channels), coupled with the anecdotal evidence we've gathered from surveys and monitoring the comments we get on Facebook (I know, not data, but in the absence of data, I make do) that it seems likely. This is also something that AdRoll has seen - they only see ~19% overlap between people who click through their general display and FBX ads (I haven't seen the study, but they imply that they did some extensive research here).

duaneb 13y ago

Google Ads target people who can't tell the difference between search results and ads. LinkedIn succeeds because they have ads people actually want to click—virtually everyone needs employment, and generally jobs are far more valuable than anything else advertised online. Any given ad for employment will be many, many, many times more interesting to any given person than any given ad on the internet will be. Facebook has very little worth selling to a young audience that will never click online ads. Who goes to Facebook to find ways to spend money? It's a social network with little relevance to commercial interests (for end users). Market-specific businesses will almost always beat out the special interests—facebook would probably get more money selling users to specialized advertising customers on demand, or even getting users to pay to make ads/stupid "features" (Games! Anything involving microtransactions! Bugging me to like things I have no desire to like!) go away. Speaking of which, how is the model of pay-to-remove-ads not more prevalent? Surely it wouldn't REDUCE profits.

c0ur7n3y 13y ago
Well, I think Facebook would have a hard time making the transition from advertisers being their customers to users being their customers. They'd have to listen to their users if they did that. That sounds expensive.
- duaneb 13y ago
  > They'd have to listen to their users if they did that. That sounds expensive. You know what else is expensive? When everyone hates your brand.
the_watcher 13y ago
>> Facebook has very little worth selling to a young audience that will never click online ads. The numbers have shown that this is provably false.
- duaneb 13y ago
  > The numbers have shown that this is provably false. I'd love to be proven false! Hit me.

the_watcher 13y ago

I agree that LinkedIn is doing some really cool stuff with their ad tools. However, while the targeting is really useful, people are just less engaged with LinkedIn as a whole. The best piece of advice I got for improving our LinkedIn ads was to target groups, since people that are in the groups pages tend to be much more engaged with the page than anywhere else on LinkedIn. Excited to see where they go though.

morganb180 13y ago

The CPC's on LinkedIn are really high (for self serve anyway) which make ROI really hard except for high LTV products/services. I can get clicks on Facebook similarly targeted for <$0.10 for what LI charged $4.