6 ms·

As a user of Docker, I'm excited. But as someone who uses the dotCloud PaaS right now to run a company, I'm a little annoyed, mostly at myself for not seeing th

by jxf 13y ago

As a user of Docker, I'm excited. But as someone who uses the dotCloud PaaS right now to run a company, I'm a little annoyed, mostly at myself for not seeing this coming. Clearly there's a diversion of resources away from the dotCloud PaaS to Docker, and that's going to have a toll somewhere. Despite the company's reassurances that everything is business as usual, I know that Docker [the project] is just too much of a beast and eventually the Docker [the company] will need to move on from the PaaS. (I should know, since I gave a talk about how "Docker is the future" just a few weeks after Docker was announced.) [0] I'm not really sure what my choices are now, either; DigitalOcean, I guess? I don't want to manage servers myself, and I want to be able to pay on the memory-usage axis for my app instances (which Heroku doesn't allow). I wasn't super excited by DO last year, but maybe things have changed. My current "light at the end of the tunnel" is hoping that the Docker-based PaaS ecosystem matures, but for now none of them seem like they're mature enough, and it's tough to keep up with all of them since it seems like another one pops up each week. Here's my wishlist: -- (1) command-line client for deployment via git repository and doing anything related to deployment (add new instances, remove instances, create new environments, assign domains to the PaaS router, etc.) -- (2) clear pricing -- (3) I can pay for more memory as I need it -- (4) ability to specify environment variables in a configuration file that take effect on the container process -- (5) web interface for administering the account Anyone have any recommendations? [0] http://spreecommerce.com/blog/spreeconf-DC-speaker-highlight-john-feminella http://spreecommerce.com/blog/spreeconf-DC-speaker-highlight...

hrvbr 13y ago
Windows Azure has the features you listed, although I'm not sure about #4. I too wanted a PaaS cloud, not an IaaS, and I found Azure to be the best option for my needs. I would have prefered a European company for legal reasons but there's no good one yet.
yummyfajitas 13y ago
There are lots of hosting providers besides digitalocean - linode is a big one, so is joyent. I've been trying out digitalocean, but they make me nervous about reliability. Twice in 2 weeks I've gotten nonsensical abuse notifications (spamming, copyright infringement). One of the complaints was only 10 minutes after I spun up a droplet - my deploy script hadn't even finished. Makes me very nervous that DO will shut off all my droplets due to complaints about what the guy who previously owned the IP address did. MPAA-based failure is far harder to plan for than disk failure.
- jxf 13y ago
  Those providers are not PaaS providers, though -- they're IaaS providers. I don't want something where step 1 is "install an OS" or "configure iptables". I want something where deployment looks more like "git push origin/master --app production".
  - bigiain 13y ago
    With a bit of preparatory work first, how close does this sound: > cd app/production > vagrant up --provider=digital_ocean ?
bacongobbler 13y ago
There are a couple other PaaS options as well coming in the near future. For open source options that are currently in development, there's https://flynn.io/ https://flynn.io/ and http://deis.io/ http://deis.io/. For production-ready Enterprise private PaaS (meaning that you host the PaaS on your own hardware) that are currently ready for production use, there's Stackato (http://www.activestate.com/stackato http://www.activestate.com/stackato), OpenShift (https://www.openshift.com/ https://www.openshift.com/), and Cloud Foundry (http://www.cloudfoundry.com/ http://www.cloudfoundry.com/). If you're just looking to deploy a single application on Digital Ocean or some other VPS, the digitalocean plugin for knife will really help out (https://github.com/rmoriz/knife-digital_ocean https://github.com/rmoriz/knife-digital_ocean). EDIT: In regards to Stackato... -- (1) command-line client for deployment via git repository and doing anything related to deployment (add new instances, remove instances, create new environments, assign domains to the PaaS router, etc.) We have a CLI for doing this, as well as a web API and a Python library for communicating with the API (see https://github.com/bacongobbler/python-stackato https://github.com/bacongobbler/python-stackato) -- (2) clear pricing We have a clear memory-based pricing plan. This allows users to scale out their infrastructure to as many nodes as they like, and only have to manage their total memory in their clusters to figure out pricing. -- (3) I can pay for more memory as I need it It's on your own hardware. EC2/Rackspace/VMWare pricing depends on their model. -- (4) ability to specify environment variables in a configuration file that take effect on the container process We have a couple of default env vars in the application container, as well as letting users configure their own envvars. See http://docs.stackato.com/reference/environment.html http://docs.stackato.com/reference/environment.html and http://docs.stackato.com/reference/stackatoyml.html http://docs.stackato.com/reference/stackatoyml.html -- (5) web interface for administering the account We have both the CLI, the API, and a web interface. Check out our YouTube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/ActiveStateSoftware http://www.youtube.com/user/ActiveStateSoftware for tutorials around the Stackato console, or just take a look at http://docs.stackato.com/ http://docs.stackato.com/ :) Disclaimer: I work as a product manager for ActiveState, working on Stackato. We'd love to have you over here! We're also on Freenode, channel #stackato if anyone is interested in this stuff :)
- druiid 13y ago
  Candidly, Stackato is an interesting platform/fork, but I looked into your pricing before and it's not really all that reasonable. If pricing was more realistic, or there was an open-source release of your CF fork, I'd be more interested.
bigiain 13y ago
I'm leaning very much towards a Vagrant/Ansible setup to provision/deploy/configure instances across a range of VPS providers. I'm actively testing with DigitalOcean/Linode/AWS right now, spinning up Ubuntu 12LTS and 13 instances both locally (in VirtualBox) and remotely, and it's looking very promising. It'll only get you 1,2, and 4 out of your list though – but does have the big advantage of not suffering "lockin" to any of the VPS vendors. It also gives me really easy local Vagrant/VirtualBox development, test, and A environments – with very high assurance that they're all sensible replications of the deployed environments. If your app/service is architected to make spinning up a new 1G or 2G instance when your 512M one is running short of resources, "faking" 3 would work. I'm not sure where I'd start looking if I needed a web interface for it all though…
keeblus 13y ago
Maybe hold tight and migrate to one of the many Docker-friendly/based PaaS that are booting up.
- jxf 13y ago
  That's my current light at the end of the tunnel, but for now none of them seem mature enough to put my customers on. And it seems like there's a new one every week! I imagine it'll be easy-ish to migrate between Docker-based PaaS's, though; just upload the container and change the provider-specific config, right? So that's a little reassuring.
kmfrk 13y ago
I think the shifting nature of PaaS is something inherent to the market and ecosystem, and something that should be taken into account as such. I struggle to find a PaaS as well, but I think we should have an appreciation of what the market is like, and what it takes to stand out and carve out a business for yourself these days. Marco's thoughts on web hosting are probably still relevant on the subject of PaaS: http://www.marco.org/2013/10/15/godaddy-mt http://www.marco.org/2013/10/15/godaddy-mt.
ARothfusz 13y ago
There's no need to make a hasty decision -- we haven't changed the platform in any way or lowered our support efforts. If you've found that you can count on the dotCloud PaaS for your business (and thank you for that!), then nothing changed today. We're still here for you. If you feel like you want to get ready for running on another platform, or using Docker as it matures, then I'd suggest the first step would be to move your databases to a neutral third party provider. With that in place, you can still run your code on the dotCloud PaaS, or anywhere else. As Docker and the ecosystem around it mature, there will be many more options. I work for Docker Inc on the dotCloud PaaS and manage the support. If you have more private questions, you can reach us at support@dotcloud.com /Andy
- pbreit 13y ago
  How the heck can you put a PaaS business on the back-burner while you bet the company on a small piece of software and expect customers to stick around?
  - shykes 13y ago
    It depends on your definition of "back-burner". DotCloud might no longer be one of the most innovative PaaS, adding features left and right like it used to - but there's no reason it can't continue to be a reliable place to host your applications. DotCloud production customers want availability, performance, reliable support, good tooling, prompt bugfixes, and generous advance warning and transition support in the event of a sunset. It's very important to us that they continue to get all these things.
    - pbreit 13y ago
      I actually thought "back-burner" was generous: "While Docker, Inc. will continue to offer PaaS services under the dotCloud brand, we will be devoting the vast majority of our resources towards growing Docker and the Docker ecosystem, and have fundamentally re-oriented our business model towards Docker-related products and services."
gabrtv 13y ago
Gabriel Monroy here, creator of Deis, one of the Docker PaaS's (http://deis.io/overview/ http://deis.io/overview/). I'd love to pick your brain about your current dilemma and see if we can help. Email me: gabriel _at_ opdemand.com.
- jayd3e 13y ago
  Mind if I e-mail you too? My company is considering using deis for deployment in the near future.
  - gabrtv 13y ago
    Of course! I'm also on twitter @gabrtv or #deis on Freenode.
    - merlinsbrain 13y ago
      Service looks promising. Will definitely get you on twitter sometime!
flipchart 13y ago
Not sure how much it meets your needs (I know it does on 1 and 5, but probably not on 2) but have you considered Windows Azure? They have managed Linux instances with git deployment and a great web interface.

by jxf 13y ago

hrvbr 13y ago

Windows Azure has the features you listed, although I'm not sure about #4. I too wanted a PaaS cloud, not an IaaS, and I found Azure to be the best option for my needs. I would have prefered a European company for legal reasons but there's no good one yet.

yummyfajitas 13y ago

There are lots of hosting providers besides digitalocean - linode is a big one, so is joyent. I've been trying out digitalocean, but they make me nervous about reliability. Twice in 2 weeks I've gotten nonsensical abuse notifications (spamming, copyright infringement). One of the complaints was only 10 minutes after I spun up a droplet - my deploy script hadn't even finished. Makes me very nervous that DO will shut off all my droplets due to complaints about what the guy who previously owned the IP address did. MPAA-based failure is far harder to plan for than disk failure.

jxf 13y ago
Those providers are not PaaS providers, though -- they're IaaS providers. I don't want something where step 1 is "install an OS" or "configure iptables". I want something where deployment looks more like "git push origin/master --app production".
- bigiain 13y ago
  With a bit of preparatory work first, how close does this sound: > cd app/production > vagrant up --provider=digital_ocean ?

bacongobbler 13y ago

There are a couple other PaaS options as well coming in the near future. For open source options that are currently in development, there's https://flynn.io/ https://flynn.io/ and http://deis.io/ http://deis.io/. For production-ready Enterprise private PaaS (meaning that you host the PaaS on your own hardware) that are currently ready for production use, there's Stackato (http://www.activestate.com/stackato http://www.activestate.com/stackato), OpenShift (https://www.openshift.com/ https://www.openshift.com/), and Cloud Foundry (http://www.cloudfoundry.com/ http://www.cloudfoundry.com/). If you're just looking to deploy a single application on Digital Ocean or some other VPS, the digitalocean plugin for knife will really help out (https://github.com/rmoriz/knife-digital_ocean https://github.com/rmoriz/knife-digital_ocean). EDIT: In regards to Stackato... -- (1) command-line client for deployment via git repository and doing anything related to deployment (add new instances, remove instances, create new environments, assign domains to the PaaS router, etc.) We have a CLI for doing this, as well as a web API and a Python library for communicating with the API (see https://github.com/bacongobbler/python-stackato https://github.com/bacongobbler/python-stackato) -- (2) clear pricing We have a clear memory-based pricing plan. This allows users to scale out their infrastructure to as many nodes as they like, and only have to manage their total memory in their clusters to figure out pricing. -- (3) I can pay for more memory as I need it It's on your own hardware. EC2/Rackspace/VMWare pricing depends on their model. -- (4) ability to specify environment variables in a configuration file that take effect on the container process We have a couple of default env vars in the application container, as well as letting users configure their own envvars. See http://docs.stackato.com/reference/environment.html http://docs.stackato.com/reference/environment.html and http://docs.stackato.com/reference/stackatoyml.html http://docs.stackato.com/reference/stackatoyml.html -- (5) web interface for administering the account We have both the CLI, the API, and a web interface. Check out our YouTube channel at http://www.youtube.com/user/ActiveStateSoftware http://www.youtube.com/user/ActiveStateSoftware for tutorials around the Stackato console, or just take a look at http://docs.stackato.com/ http://docs.stackato.com/ :) Disclaimer: I work as a product manager for ActiveState, working on Stackato. We'd love to have you over here! We're also on Freenode, channel #stackato if anyone is interested in this stuff :)

druiid 13y ago
Candidly, Stackato is an interesting platform/fork, but I looked into your pricing before and it's not really all that reasonable. If pricing was more realistic, or there was an open-source release of your CF fork, I'd be more interested.

bigiain 13y ago

I'm leaning very much towards a Vagrant/Ansible setup to provision/deploy/configure instances across a range of VPS providers. I'm actively testing with DigitalOcean/Linode/AWS right now, spinning up Ubuntu 12LTS and 13 instances both locally (in VirtualBox) and remotely, and it's looking very promising. It'll only get you 1,2, and 4 out of your list though – but does have the big advantage of not suffering "lockin" to any of the VPS vendors. It also gives me really easy local Vagrant/VirtualBox development, test, and A environments – with very high assurance that they're all sensible replications of the deployed environments. If your app/service is architected to make spinning up a new 1G or 2G instance when your 512M one is running short of resources, "faking" 3 would work. I'm not sure where I'd start looking if I needed a web interface for it all though…

keeblus 13y ago

Maybe hold tight and migrate to one of the many Docker-friendly/based PaaS that are booting up.

jxf 13y ago
That's my current light at the end of the tunnel, but for now none of them seem mature enough to put my customers on. And it seems like there's a new one every week! I imagine it'll be easy-ish to migrate between Docker-based PaaS's, though; just upload the container and change the provider-specific config, right? So that's a little reassuring.

kmfrk 13y ago

I think the shifting nature of PaaS is something inherent to the market and ecosystem, and something that should be taken into account as such. I struggle to find a PaaS as well, but I think we should have an appreciation of what the market is like, and what it takes to stand out and carve out a business for yourself these days. Marco's thoughts on web hosting are probably still relevant on the subject of PaaS: http://www.marco.org/2013/10/15/godaddy-mt http://www.marco.org/2013/10/15/godaddy-mt.

ARothfusz 13y ago

There's no need to make a hasty decision -- we haven't changed the platform in any way or lowered our support efforts. If you've found that you can count on the dotCloud PaaS for your business (and thank you for that!), then nothing changed today. We're still here for you. If you feel like you want to get ready for running on another platform, or using Docker as it matures, then I'd suggest the first step would be to move your databases to a neutral third party provider. With that in place, you can still run your code on the dotCloud PaaS, or anywhere else. As Docker and the ecosystem around it mature, there will be many more options. I work for Docker Inc on the dotCloud PaaS and manage the support. If you have more private questions, you can reach us at support@dotcloud.com /Andy

pbreit 13y ago
How the heck can you put a PaaS business on the back-burner while you bet the company on a small piece of software and expect customers to stick around?
- shykes 13y ago
  It depends on your definition of "back-burner". DotCloud might no longer be one of the most innovative PaaS, adding features left and right like it used to - but there's no reason it can't continue to be a reliable place to host your applications. DotCloud production customers want availability, performance, reliable support, good tooling, prompt bugfixes, and generous advance warning and transition support in the event of a sunset. It's very important to us that they continue to get all these things.
  - pbreit 13y ago
    I actually thought "back-burner" was generous: "While Docker, Inc. will continue to offer PaaS services under the dotCloud brand, we will be devoting the vast majority of our resources towards growing Docker and the Docker ecosystem, and have fundamentally re-oriented our business model towards Docker-related products and services."

gabrtv 13y ago

Gabriel Monroy here, creator of Deis, one of the Docker PaaS's (http://deis.io/overview/ http://deis.io/overview/). I'd love to pick your brain about your current dilemma and see if we can help. Email me: gabriel _at_ opdemand.com.

jayd3e 13y ago
Mind if I e-mail you too? My company is considering using deis for deployment in the near future.
- gabrtv 13y ago
  Of course! I'm also on twitter @gabrtv or #deis on Freenode.
  - merlinsbrain 13y ago
    Service looks promising. Will definitely get you on twitter sometime!

flipchart 13y ago

Not sure how much it meets your needs (I know it does on 1 and 5, but probably not on 2) but have you considered Windows Azure? They have managed Linux instances with git deployment and a great web interface.