5 ms·

Your naivety and optimism is cute. Reality is that no brunch of the current government gives a shit. The US isn't a democratic republic anymore.

Karunamon 13y ago
Your pessimism and apathy is both disheartening and infuriating. Make enough of a stink, and people listen. That is one of the few immutable laws of politics. If you are not getting the desired results, you're not making enough of a stink yet.
- Nanzikambe 13y ago
  - 36 million people across the globe march in protest, Iraq: still invaded. (Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War) - Millions protest regularly, Guantanamo: still open (Couldn't be bothered to source exact numbers, but here're some pictures: https://www.google.com/search?q=Protests+Guantanamo&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vcJvUtfRNuHF7AbLmIG4Cg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1208&bih=865&dpr=1 https://www.google.com/search?q=Protests+Guantanamo&source=l...) - Ditto patriot act, status: passed Exactly how much of a stink did you have in mind? Perhaps people setting themselves on fire en mass? Getting run over by tanks?
  - davidw 13y ago
    Boo hoo - protests were had, and it did not change things. So you keep working and keep trying, it's not like you get to just show up at a protest and everything magically gets better. It takes money, time, and hard work.
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of "protest."
      - Karunamon 13y ago
        Utterly disagree - massive large scale "protest" is what got SOPA killed. I have yet to see the cynics suggest a better reasonable course of action. I also wish that people who have nothing constructive to add would kindly STFU instead of dumping all over everyone else's ideas and enthusiasm. I can think of no better way to ensure things never change.
    - Nanzikambe 13y ago
      I was responding to the parent, a fact you seem to have taken out of context. Care to elaborate on what possibly more could have been done in any of the cited examples that wasn't already done? Or indeed how you propose that "money, time, and hardwork" (sic) would help? I'd also be interested in why you feel money should be involved in preserving the right of any sentient being not to be tortured, invaded or denied the right to protest when the former happens.
      - davidw 13y ago
        > Care to elaborate on what possibly more could have been done in any of the cited examples that wasn't already done? You don't always get your way, you know? You win some, you lose some. That doesn't mean that ... there's no democracy and nothing is possible and woe is us, etc... etc... blah blah blah. > why you feel money should be involved in preserving the right of any sentient being not to be tortured, invaded or denied the right to protest when the former happens. We're not talking about an ideal world (duh), but about the one we inhabit. In this one, sometimes justice is difficult to obtain, and requires sacrifice. So you can either get off your ass and do something, or you can sit around complaining on HN. The former sometimes won't work, or won't accomplish what you had hoped to. The latter is guaranteed to accomplish nothing.
        Nanzikambe 13y ago
        Perhaps you should re-read what you're responding to. I'm certainly not complaining unless that's how you define discussion that runs contrary to your interests, in which case: why are you here? Also nice edit :-P
rtpg 13y ago
More pragmatically, nobody has ever cared about the rights of foreigners. Xenophobia is something that is heavily rooted in pretty much every culture, and it comes to rear its ugly head at times like this.
davidw 13y ago
Lead, follow, or get the fuck out of the way, as they say. Your whining accomplishes nothing, and just might discourage people from getting out there and making a difference. You are aiding and abetting those who would stick to the status quo.
- nsxwolf 13y ago
  "Here's another guy thing that sucks. These t-shirts that say: "Lead, follow, or get out of the way". You ever see that? This is more of that stupid Marine Corps bullshit. Obsolete, male impulses from a hundred thousand years ago, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way". You know what I do when I see that shirt; I obstruct. I stand right in the guy's path, force him to walk around me, he gets a little past me, I spin him around kick him in the nuts, rip off his shirt, wipe it on my ass, and shove it down his fucking throat. Hey, listen that's all these marines are looking for; a good time." -- George Carlin
  - greedo 13y ago
    Yeah, I'm sure good old George routinely assaulted people for wearing a t-shirt. Perhaps we should learn to tell the difference between comedy and effective politics.
  - davidw 13y ago
    While funny, do you understand my second point, which is what this whole thread is really all about? What are you going to do today to make a difference, even if it's not much? Snarking on HN does not count. (I gave my rep, Peter DeFazio a call to register my dismay with the ongoing situation in Guantanamo, BTW. It might not be much, but it's something)
    - abraininavat 13y ago
      The venerable George Carlin just told you to shut up from beyond the grave. And yet you continue. We're all tired of hearing you say the same thing over and over again in this thread. Listen to George.
sker 13y ago
> The US isn't a democratic republic anymore. I also used to think that my government wasn't a democracy because they don't represent me. But the truth is, they do represent the majority of the population. If no branch of your government gives a shit about this issue, that's because the majority of your society doesn't either. So long as they have McDonald's and reality TV, who gives a shit about some random terrorists being tortured? Change the mindset of your society and then, only then, you will see change in your government, but not before.
- 001sky 13y ago
  But the truth is, they do represent the majority of the population. They represent a majority of the money. The country's strategic assets are held to ransom by a fraction of 1% of the citizens. We're playing modern Monopoly.
- jusben1369 13y ago
  Sadly sker people don't want to face this simple reality. It's easier to play the victim card. To want to tear the whole thing down and start again. To say "my vote doesn't count so I'm just going to stand here and complain about how a mystical evil force of the wealthy or neohawks really runs everything" I guess they do because they actually give a shit and work the current system. When your opponent throws up their hands and leaves the court or playing field they can't be too surprised when the score gets run up. The "I need to roll up my sleeves and work hard to make changes to gerrymandering, primaries and campaign finance reforms so that a much broader pool of American's can have a chance to run for and win" just isn't sexy. Heck one rogue sys admin and fringe blogger are single handily re-defining domestic and international politics. Imagine if every one else did just 5% of what they did to retool the current processes?
  - notdonspaulding 13y ago
    Heck one rogue sys admin and fringe blogger are single handily re-defining domestic and international politics. Gosh, I hope not. As much as I admire Edward Snowden, I sincerely hope the new definition of domestic and international politics isn't "Live in fear of the whistleblower." It's a terribly sad day when doing the right thing by the public is left to one lowly sysadmin in the entire intelligence community. I'd like to think that someday we can get back to asking for less of the totally naked transparency we're now demanding of the intelligence community, because we can trust them to do their job without abusing their power. Others have pontificated on how the NSA can restore that trust. I don't know how, I just hope that someday they DO.
nemof 13y ago
It really never was. The fairy tale is over, the curtain pulled back, the unappealing truth revealed. This is how an imperialist super power operates. This is the necessity of maintaining a long established way of life, not some spiral into corruption and descent into madness. You were always mad.

Karunamon 13y ago

Your pessimism and apathy is both disheartening and infuriating. Make enough of a stink, and people listen. That is one of the few immutable laws of politics. If you are not getting the desired results, you're not making enough of a stink yet.

Nanzikambe 13y ago
- 36 million people across the globe march in protest, Iraq: still invaded. (Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War) - Millions protest regularly, Guantanamo: still open (Couldn't be bothered to source exact numbers, but here're some pictures: https://www.google.com/search?q=Protests+Guantanamo&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=vcJvUtfRNuHF7AbLmIG4Cg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1208&bih=865&dpr=1 https://www.google.com/search?q=Protests+Guantanamo&source=l...) - Ditto patriot act, status: passed Exactly how much of a stink did you have in mind? Perhaps people setting themselves on fire en mass? Getting run over by tanks?
- davidw 13y ago
  Boo hoo - protests were had, and it did not change things. So you keep working and keep trying, it's not like you get to just show up at a protest and everything magically gets better. It takes money, time, and hard work.
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is the definition of "protest."
    - Karunamon 13y ago
      Utterly disagree - massive large scale "protest" is what got SOPA killed. I have yet to see the cynics suggest a better reasonable course of action. I also wish that people who have nothing constructive to add would kindly STFU instead of dumping all over everyone else's ideas and enthusiasm. I can think of no better way to ensure things never change.
  - Nanzikambe 13y ago
    I was responding to the parent, a fact you seem to have taken out of context. Care to elaborate on what possibly more could have been done in any of the cited examples that wasn't already done? Or indeed how you propose that "money, time, and hardwork" (sic) would help? I'd also be interested in why you feel money should be involved in preserving the right of any sentient being not to be tortured, invaded or denied the right to protest when the former happens.
    - davidw 13y ago
      > Care to elaborate on what possibly more could have been done in any of the cited examples that wasn't already done? You don't always get your way, you know? You win some, you lose some. That doesn't mean that ... there's no democracy and nothing is possible and woe is us, etc... etc... blah blah blah. > why you feel money should be involved in preserving the right of any sentient being not to be tortured, invaded or denied the right to protest when the former happens. We're not talking about an ideal world (duh), but about the one we inhabit. In this one, sometimes justice is difficult to obtain, and requires sacrifice. So you can either get off your ass and do something, or you can sit around complaining on HN. The former sometimes won't work, or won't accomplish what you had hoped to. The latter is guaranteed to accomplish nothing.
      - Nanzikambe 13y ago
        Perhaps you should re-read what you're responding to. I'm certainly not complaining unless that's how you define discussion that runs contrary to your interests, in which case: why are you here? Also nice edit :-P

rtpg 13y ago

More pragmatically, nobody has ever cared about the rights of foreigners. Xenophobia is something that is heavily rooted in pretty much every culture, and it comes to rear its ugly head at times like this.

davidw 13y ago

Lead, follow, or get the fuck out of the way, as they say. Your whining accomplishes nothing, and just might discourage people from getting out there and making a difference. You are aiding and abetting those who would stick to the status quo.

nsxwolf 13y ago
"Here's another guy thing that sucks. These t-shirts that say: "Lead, follow, or get out of the way". You ever see that? This is more of that stupid Marine Corps bullshit. Obsolete, male impulses from a hundred thousand years ago, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way". You know what I do when I see that shirt; I obstruct. I stand right in the guy's path, force him to walk around me, he gets a little past me, I spin him around kick him in the nuts, rip off his shirt, wipe it on my ass, and shove it down his fucking throat. Hey, listen that's all these marines are looking for; a good time." -- George Carlin
- greedo 13y ago
  Yeah, I'm sure good old George routinely assaulted people for wearing a t-shirt. Perhaps we should learn to tell the difference between comedy and effective politics.
- davidw 13y ago
  While funny, do you understand my second point, which is what this whole thread is really all about? What are you going to do today to make a difference, even if it's not much? Snarking on HN does not count. (I gave my rep, Peter DeFazio a call to register my dismay with the ongoing situation in Guantanamo, BTW. It might not be much, but it's something)
  - abraininavat 13y ago
    The venerable George Carlin just told you to shut up from beyond the grave. And yet you continue. We're all tired of hearing you say the same thing over and over again in this thread. Listen to George.

sker 13y ago

> The US isn't a democratic republic anymore. I also used to think that my government wasn't a democracy because they don't represent me. But the truth is, they do represent the majority of the population. If no branch of your government gives a shit about this issue, that's because the majority of your society doesn't either. So long as they have McDonald's and reality TV, who gives a shit about some random terrorists being tortured? Change the mindset of your society and then, only then, you will see change in your government, but not before.

001sky 13y ago
But the truth is, they do represent the majority of the population. They represent a majority of the money. The country's strategic assets are held to ransom by a fraction of 1% of the citizens. We're playing modern Monopoly.
jusben1369 13y ago
Sadly sker people don't want to face this simple reality. It's easier to play the victim card. To want to tear the whole thing down and start again. To say "my vote doesn't count so I'm just going to stand here and complain about how a mystical evil force of the wealthy or neohawks really runs everything" I guess they do because they actually give a shit and work the current system. When your opponent throws up their hands and leaves the court or playing field they can't be too surprised when the score gets run up. The "I need to roll up my sleeves and work hard to make changes to gerrymandering, primaries and campaign finance reforms so that a much broader pool of American's can have a chance to run for and win" just isn't sexy. Heck one rogue sys admin and fringe blogger are single handily re-defining domestic and international politics. Imagine if every one else did just 5% of what they did to retool the current processes?
- notdonspaulding 13y ago
  Heck one rogue sys admin and fringe blogger are single handily re-defining domestic and international politics. Gosh, I hope not. As much as I admire Edward Snowden, I sincerely hope the new definition of domestic and international politics isn't "Live in fear of the whistleblower." It's a terribly sad day when doing the right thing by the public is left to one lowly sysadmin in the entire intelligence community. I'd like to think that someday we can get back to asking for less of the totally naked transparency we're now demanding of the intelligence community, because we can trust them to do their job without abusing their power. Others have pontificated on how the NSA can restore that trust. I don't know how, I just hope that someday they DO.

nemof 13y ago

It really never was. The fairy tale is over, the curtain pulled back, the unappealing truth revealed. This is how an imperialist super power operates. This is the necessity of maintaining a long established way of life, not some spiral into corruption and descent into madness. You were always mad.